Jaguars release Allen Hurns

[DuvalsKing]

1 hour ago, Jags said:

I think the team will go out and get 1 more big WR in the draft (I hope Jaleel Scott in a late round) to help move the chains consistently and win 50/50 balls. 

Marcell Ateman from OKstate is a wideout to look at in the middle rounds too. Respect to Hurns but his contract doesn't represent his production. For possibly your 3 wideout making 7 mil is bad business sense. If Hurns still had 15 production he'd still be here thats what I love about the way Jags have structured contracts it doen't allow us to end up back where we were locks us in to guys p**** footing around after they get paid. You perform your healthy you'll continue to get paid as long as you keep up your production if your production doesn't warrant your contract you gotta go. 

[Speedyg]

2 hours ago, Jags said:

I think the team will go out and get 1 more big WR in the draft (I hope Jaleel Scott in a late round) to help move the chains consistently and win 50/50 balls. 

I wouldn't be oppose to adding a bigger receiver in the later rounds, but it wouldn't surprise me if they felt Moncrief and Jenkins gives us enough in that department.

Not sure we're a big fade team now anyway as it seems our goal line plays are heavily predicated on run and play action off it

[pwny]

3 hours ago, Jags said:

I think the team will go out and get 1 more big WR in the draft (I hope Jaleel Scott in a late round) to help move the chains consistently and win 50/50 balls. 

If this team doesn’t spend high draft resources on a couple receivers, they’re setting themselves up for a potentially monstrous failure.

[KhanYouDigIt]

I don’t necessarily think they need to go WR early and often in the Draft.

They love Dede (a 4th round pick) and Cole (UDFA). They obviously just re-signed Lee and signed Moncrief.

Lee is going to move the chains. Health is obviously a ? 

Moncrief will be our deep threat/RZ guy. Health is a ? as well.

Cole and Dede should be even better in year 2. I’m not sure which one I would put in the slot.

I feel like they are pretty confident in that top 4.  Say Lee and Moncrief went down, I think Cole and Dede could step up and produce.

If anything, I think they will look at guys like J’Mon Moore, Auden Tate, Dante Pettis (could be your #5 WR year 1 and be the main returner).

I am no betting man but I feel like QB/OL/TE/WR are addressed in the first 4 rounds. Offense heavy. 

[Tugboat]

2 hours ago, iPwn said:

If this team doesn’t spend high draft resources on a couple receivers, they’re setting themselves up for a potentially monstrous failure.

I don't know about multiple premium draft resources on receivers (if we're counting TEs in that, maybe).  But as a whole...yeah...

44 minutes ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

I don’t necessarily think they need to go WR early and often in the Draft.

They love Dede (a 4th round pick) and Cole (UDFA). They obviously just re-signed Lee and signed Moncrief.

Lee is going to move the chains. Health is obviously a ? 

Moncrief will be our deep threat/RZ guy. Health is a ? as well.

Cole and Dede should be even better in year 2. I’m not sure which one I would put in the slot.

I feel like they are pretty confident in that top 4.  Say Lee and Moncrief went down, I think Cole and Dede could step up and produce.

If anything, I think they will look at guys like J’Mon Moore, Auden Tate, Dante Pettis (could be your #5 WR year 1 and be the main returner).

I am no betting man but I feel like QB/OL/TE/WR are addressed in the first 4 rounds. Offense heavy. 

I just don't like this notion of expecting everything to go as well as or even better than last year.  Without much of a fallback position if things go worse.  That's what reactive management does.

Part of why last year worked, was because they had guys like Dede and Cole who stepped up when the depth chart ahead of them kinda fell apart.  We missed our top WR for the entire year, and our #2 and #3 guys coming into the season both missed noteworthy time as well.  THAT was what allowed guys like Dede and Cole to show in the first place.  If one or two of our top guys miss time again (and lets be serious here, Lee and Moncrief both have established histories of getting banged up and having trouble staying on the field), you may well be right in that Dede and Cole can pick up that slack.  I'm not as confident in that, but even taking that for granted...who picks up the slack behind them?  Who picks up further down the depth chart like they did last year?  Mickens, Strong, Greene, Wynn?    Who are the Dede and Cole from last year who step up when others go down?  ARob ended up not playing last year due to injury, but in letting him go and the players in/out this offseason...they've effectively shaved an entire run off the top of the depth chart in letting ARob go, without any replacement.

It just seems like ignoring the lesson of last year, in favour of this highly optimistic overestimation of what they already have.  This assumption that everything is going to go even better than last year.  And it might.  But it also very plausibly might not.  Which is seriously risky in a year with the sort of ambitions this team ought to have right now.  And in a season where they need to be significantly better in that facet of the game...not even just maintaining a similar level.  Run run run is great and i love that they've identified a "team identity" that fits so well with the defense...but 50% of the time, they're still going to be passing the football.  It's still equally important.

[.Buzz]

32 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

I don't know about multiple premium draft resources on receivers (if we're counting TEs in that, maybe).  But as a whole...yeah...

I just don't like this notion of expecting everything to go as well as or even better than last year.  Without much of a fallback position if things go worse.  That's what reactive management does.

Part of why last year worked, was because they had guys like Dede and Cole who stepped up when the depth chart ahead of them kinda fell apart.  We missed our top WR for the entire year, and our #2 and #3 guys coming into the season both missed noteworthy time as well.  THAT was what allowed guys like Dede and Cole to show in the first place.  If one or two of our top guys miss time again (and lets be serious here, Lee and Moncrief both have established histories of getting banged up and having trouble staying on the field), you may well be right in that Dede and Cole can pick up that slack.  I'm not as confident in that, but even taking that for granted...who picks up the slack behind them?  Who picks up further down the depth chart like they did last year?  Mickens, Strong, Greene, Wynn?    Who are the Dede and Cole from last year who step up when others go down?  ARob ended up not playing last year due to injury, but in letting him go and the players in/out this offseason...they've effectively shaved an entire run off the top of the depth chart in letting ARob go, without any replacement.

It just seems like ignoring the lesson of last year, in favour of this highly optimistic overestimation of what they already have.  This assumption that everything is going to go even better than last year.  And it might.  But it also very plausibly might not.  Which is seriously risky in a year with the sort of ambitions this team ought to have right now.  And in a season where they need to be significantly better in that facet of the game...not even just maintaining a similar level.  Run run run is great and i love that they've identified a "team identity" that fits so well with the defense...but 50% of the time, they're still going to be passing the football.  It's still equally important.

There is definitely a good chance we draft a guy or two, but it'd be tough seeing any of our top 4 as the #5 guy. All for getting another guy, but a top 2 round guy would he sort of surprising to me.

[Tugboat]

4 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

There is definitely a good chance we draft a guy or two, but it'd be tough seeing any of our top 4 as the #5 guy. All for getting another guy, but a top 2 round guy would he sort of surprising to me.

I wouldn't mind that either really.  That 2nd-4th round sort of range in this draft seems like the real meat of the WR class to me anyway.

It kinda comes back to the weird approach they've taken as a whole though.  Cluttering up the #2/3 spots, without a lot on top, or anything below.  Like you're saying...you can only get so many guys on the field and with the ball in their hands (when healthy).  Especially in this offense.  A top-2 round pick on a guy that slots right into that murky 5 strong collection means some quality depth is sitting/maybe even inactive some weeks.  That's not good.  It's an awkward situation though.  But it's clear enough that this collection of #2/3 types is what they want, rather than the investment in a real #1.

[.Buzz]

20 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

I wouldn't mind that either really.  That 2nd-4th round sort of range in this draft seems like the real meat of the WR class to me anyway.

It kinda comes back to the weird approach they've taken as a whole though.  Cluttering up the #2/3 spots, without a lot on top, or anything below.  Like you're saying...you can only get so many guys on the field and with the ball in their hands (when healthy).  Especially in this offense.  A top-2 round pick on a guy that slots right into that murky 5 strong collection means some quality depth is sitting/maybe even inactive some weeks.  That's not good.  It's an awkward situation though.  But it's clear enough that this collection of #2/3 types is what they want, rather than the investment in a real #1.

Yeah, and I can't say I blame them with that approach. With how we want to play there's no reason to pay 16M per on a WR. It's nice to have "that guy" in certain situations but we have a lot of guys we have to pay on defense/OL. Can't pay everyone, so may as well be someone at a position that we don't put a particularly huge value on.

If Moncrief can stay healthy I think he could be a pretty big pickup for us. Just such a big if though. 

But I'm all in on a WR in the middle rounds as you said. Unless they think really highly of Wynn and/or Mickens I'd be surprised if they didn't take on in that range.

[pwny]

Last year, we lost a bunch of receivers but we had all the stars at the other positions able to play at a level that made the impact of losing receivers minimal. 

What happens when Lee pulls his hamstring again and we lose a couple players on defense? Who picks up the slack that time?

[.Buzz]

5 minutes ago, iPwn said:

Last year, we lost a bunch of receivers but we had all the stars at the other positions able to play at a level that made the impact of losing receivers minimal. 

What happens when Lee pulls his hamstring again and we lose a couple players on defense? Who picks up the slack that time?

I expect TE to be better as is from a pass-catching/weapon perspective and also expect another going into the draft. Dede/Cole were rookies, neither of which really got much of a chance/were healthy until midseason/after midseason. 

Moncrief has his injury questions but ARob tore his ACL week 1, so it's basically as if he has been added without replacing anyone from this past season. Hurns really didn't do much/was a big part of our passing game at all last year. 

We can talk about injury possibilities for our guys at receiver all we want, but no team has 5+ deep at the position. 

If we were to draft Kirk/Sutton round one, are we then just putting Dede/Cole on the bench/giving them a very small role? I'm all for competition, but I'd also rather address other positions of need/get more depth/developmental guys who can take over in the near future. I wouldn't be upset with a WR, but I'm not sure I care to see either of the two young guys with minimal roles with what they showed year one. Feel like that'd be kind of dumb for us to do tbh. That's why I'd rather spend a mid round pick on a guy (where there will still be solid prospects who could end up coming in if need be and producing hopefully than a higher round pick just to knock down an already talented/solid WR because of the players draft position.

[.Buzz]

Just now, .Buzz said:

I expect TE to be better as is from a pass-catching/weapon perspective and also expect another going into the draft. Dede/Cole were rookies, neither of which really got much of a chance/were healthy until midseason/after midseason. 

Moncrief has his injury questions but ARob tore his ACL week 1, so it's basically as if he has been added without replacing anyone from this past season. Hurns really didn't do much/was a big part of our passing game at all last year. 

We can talk about injury possibilities for our guys at receiver all we want, but no team has 5+ deep at the position. 

If we were to draft Kirk/Sutton round one, are we then just putting Dede/Cole on the bench/giving them a very small role? I'm all for competition, but I'd also rather address other positions of need/get more depth/developmental guys who can take over in the near future. I wouldn't be upset with a WR, but I'm not sure I care to see either of the two young guys with minimal roles with what they showed year one. Feel like that'd be kind of dumb for us to do tbh. That's why I'd rather spend a mid round pick on a guy (where there will still be solid prospects who could end up coming in if need be and producing hopefully than a higher round pick just to knock down an already talented/solid WR because of the players draft position.

Also, I'm definitely not saying we should expect anything at WR from Mickens or Wynn, but Wynn was beating out Cole in TC prior to him getting hurt. He was impressing a lot of people who covered the team. I'd say having a guy like him or Mickens (who had a couple decent games when they gave him a shot) could be a decent #5/#6 type receiver in emergency situations.

Again, no team is ever going to have THAT many options deep at the WR position. That's why I wasn't huge on bringing back Lee AND signing Moncrief as both have injury questions. They obviously seem to think the ones with Moncrief are behind him I feel like with committing that much money (although it's just one year) to get him I feel like. Gotta hope they're right. It's a given that Lee wil miss 2-3 games at some point.

[KhanYouDigIt]

13 minutes ago, iPwn said:

Who picks up the slack that time?

[pwny]

20 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

We can talk about injury possibilities for our guys at receiver all we want, but no team has 5+ deep at the position. 

That’s not what I’m asking about though.

And maybe that’s what’s being misunderstood.

 

Let’s pretend that Madden grades are a real representation of players skills. Everyone is worth an amount of value to a team from 53-100. Last year, we lost receivers. Maybe Hurnsy is 85 and maybe ARob is 95 or whatever. And so forth. So maybe at full health, out defense was rated 99 and our offense was like 90. The defense stayed super healthy all year, so maybe they played like they were 97. The offense was pretty healthy for the majority of the year outside of WR. Maybe they played like at 85. The defense was able to pick up the slack of the missing players at receiver because they had so many good players who stayed healthy  

My questions is, what happens if a receiver gets injured and then we have some injuries elsewhere? What if CC or Telvin or Ramsey or whoever go down? What if the defense can only play at 92 instead of 97 because some key guys go down? Is Moncrief really going to be able to bring the offense up to 89 or whatever to allow us the ability to mask the problem that the other injuries might cause?

[.Buzz]

33 minutes ago, iPwn said:

That’s not what I’m asking about though.

And maybe that’s what’s being misunderstood.

 

Let’s pretend that Madden grades are a real representation of players skills. Everyone is worth an amount of value to a team from 53-100. Last year, we lost receivers. Maybe Hurnsy is 85 and maybe ARob is 95 or whatever. And so forth. So maybe at full health, out defense was rated 99 and our offense was like 90. The defense stayed super healthy all year, so maybe they played like they were 97. The offense was pretty healthy for the majority of the year outside of WR. Maybe they played like at 85. The defense was able to pick up the slack of the missing players at receiver because they had so many good players who stayed healthy  

My questions is, what happens if a receiver gets injured and then we have some injuries elsewhere? What if CC or Telvin or Ramsey or whoever go down? What if the defense can only play at 92 instead of 97 because some key guys go down? Is Moncrief really going to be able to bring the offense up to 89 or whatever to allow us the ability to mask the problem that the other injuries might cause?

Gotcha, but I don't think drafting a receiver early really changes those dynamics. Signing A-Rob/Watkins doesn't likely even drastically change that. This team is built to play great D and run the heck out of the ball (as you obviously know), it seems as if our plan is to sure up some weak spots (Norwell, ASJ signed), build up the ST (McCray back, Cody Davis, Niles Paul, etc.), and be deep at the WR position while not having to pay a guy long-term a big allotment of money because that's not the type of offense we are.

Our DL is pretty solid as far as depth goes atm and Smoot when given a chances flashed considerably year one. We'll have to draft more guys to hopefully make the defense deeper so if a big piece does go out we can put someone in there that doesn't kill us. Safety especially, probably another corner at some point.

We can win games with a big guy or two going out as long as our offense can do something. It'd be nice to add another big time WR, but if we can nab a TE ala Hurst/someone else that's decent whether that be in round 1 or round 3, with ASJ, and Moncrief/Lee (maybe one of these guys is out at some point)/Dede/Cole with a rookie/Wynn/Mickens I think that's a supporting cast that can get it done. It all hinges on Blake not having those games like TEN x2/ARZ/BUF where the only way to win is if our defense is insane and forces multiple turnovers. His weapons weren't great at times, but there was some games where he just didn't have it and couldn't hit anything. Would have been a struggle even with a better supporting cast.

Our OL just added an all-pro and in all reality 4/5 of our OL is pretty damn solid. Yeldon showed some serious improvement last year when he was given a chance and was hitting the hole harder. We gave Grant a 2nd round tender so I'd be surprised if he wasn't used more. Fournette is Fournette, when he's out there he's a machine. This was done with some seriously suspect interior OL (minus Linder) and an OT who was all out of whack due to a nagging leg injury in Cam Robinson. Our running game was pretty pedestrian after week 7/8 of last year. All while having a hit or miss passing game and we still got to 10-6 and the AFC Championship game.

It's going to be interesting, I just don't think spending a high pick on a WR makes sense with our current setup but then again, it's not like I'm opposed to loading up on weapons for Blake to throw too. I just would rather see another interior OL/developmental OT ala McGlinchey/TE to pair with ASJ than a WR where we have four legit receivers (some inexperience and there is risk, but still) that all should/need to get playing time in the early rounds.

Reality is our defense won't be that healthy this year, that's a given. I just feel like it's more on Blake than getting him a WR for our offense to be able to pick up that slack. The weapons he has/should have after the draft will be pretty solid with an OL that is pretty darn good compared to most of the NFL. It's on him to utilize it and take a step in the consistency department. We know he can do it.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

2 hours ago, iPwn said:

That’s not what I’m asking about though.

And maybe that’s what’s being misunderstood.

 

Let’s pretend that Madden grades are a real representation of players skills. Everyone is worth an amount of value to a team from 53-100. Last year, we lost receivers. Maybe Hurnsy is 85 and maybe ARob is 95 or whatever. And so forth. So maybe at full health, out defense was rated 99 and our offense was like 90. The defense stayed super healthy all year, so maybe they played like they were 97. The offense was pretty healthy for the majority of the year outside of WR. Maybe they played like at 85. The defense was able to pick up the slack of the missing players at receiver because they had so many good players who stayed healthy  

My questions is, what happens if a receiver gets injured and then we have some injuries elsewhere? What if CC or Telvin or Ramsey or whoever go down? What if the defense can only play at 92 instead of 97 because some key guys go down? Is Moncrief really going to be able to bring the offense up to 89 or whatever to allow us the ability to mask the problem that the other injuries might cause?

We have Moncrief and ASJ...we’re gonna be in trouble