Gruden hints RB early

[lavar703]

55 minutes ago, TKellion said:

Every one says 13 is too early for Guice.So why is trading back out of the question?We all agree we need a couple more early picks.Trading back to the late teens or early twenties could get us another 2nd and a 3rd.Then we can take Guice and get a OG and NT in the 2nd.or any other value that is available.There are plenty of 2 down run stuffers that will be there on day 3 of the draft.

The real issue is 13 isn't too high for Guice. He's a stud. If we don't take him at 13 he'll 100% be gone by the time our second round pick comes up. I can understand passing on him if we don't sign Hankins but I'd probably be upset if we signed Hankins and didn't take Guice. 

[Eric]

1 hour ago, lavar703 said:

The real issue is 13 isn't too high for Guice. He's a stud. If we don't take him at 13 he'll 100% be gone by the time our second round pick comes up. I can understand passing on him if we don't sign Hankins but I'd probably be upset if we signed Hankins and didn't take Guice. 

I wouldn't be upset, I wouldn't be mad if we took him either though. Depends on who is there at 13. There's going to be some good ones there regardless at 13, we should be able to land a good player. I believe if we want Guice, the best course is to trade back no later than pick 19 because I think Detroit is 20. They're the first real threat to take him. That's if we find a trade partner. Fallback plan if someone took him is Payne

[turtle28]

6 hours ago, lavar703 said:

The real issue is 13 isn't too high for Guice. He's a stud. If we don't take him at 13 he'll 100% be gone by the time our second round pick comes up. I can understand passing on him if we don't sign Hankins but I'd probably be upset if we signed Hankins and didn't take Guice. 

Even if we sign Hankins, I think Vea or Payne in round 1 and a RB like Chubb or Johnson in round 2 is still the best thing to do.

Having a DL that looks like this would be a dream:

RDE: Allen, Lanier, McClain/McGee

NT: Vea, Hood/Hankins

LDE: Hankins, Ioannidis 

[MikeT14]

edit: nevermind

[MKnight82]

4 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Even if we sign Hankins, I think Vea or Payne in round 1 and a RB like Chubb or Johnson in round 2 is still the best thing to do.

Having a DL that looks like this would be a dream:

RDE: Allen, Lanier, McClain/McGee

NT: Vea, Hood/Hankins

LDE: Hankins, Ioannidis 

I don’t see Hankins as a DE at all. Also Allen plays LE and Ioannidis plays RE.

[oldman9er]

4 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Even if we sign Hankins, I think Vea or Payne in round 1 and a RB like Chubb or Johnson in round 2 is still the best thing to do.

Having a DL that looks like this would be a dream:

RDE: Allen, Lanier, McClain/McGee

NT: Vea, Hood/Hankins

LDE: Hankins, Ioannidis 

As nice as that looks.. and as much as I respect building in the trenches.. this just feels like a luxury that Washington probably shouldn't go for. (and you know I loves me some Vea)

It wouldn't be some awful decision, but it is more tempting to upgrade a different spot... or even a more preferred trade back. 

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

I don’t see Hankins as a DE at all. Also Allen plays LE and Ioannidis plays RE.

Allen plays next to Preston Smith doesn’t he?

Hankins is a lot like Chris Baker (only with a better motor and more technique discipline vs the run) he has quickness for his size and has some pass rushing ability. 

He played all over the line last year for the Colts. O, 1, 3 & 5 technique and someone told me on Twitter he mostly played 4 technique. He has the ability to be a run stuffing NT on 1st down or move over one or 2 gaps and stuff the guard or OT to make room for Zach Brown and Foster to go make the tackles.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, oldman9er said:

As nice as that looks.. and as much as I respect building in the trenches.. this just feels like a luxury that Washington probably shouldn't go for. (and you know I loves me some Vea)

It wouldn't be some awful decision, but it is more tempting to upgrade a different spot... or even a more preferred trade back. 

I don’t see it as a luxury. The team has given near or over 5 yards a carry on first downs and short yardage every year this decade except for 2011 when we invested heavily in 3 veteran DL (Bowen, Cofield & Carriker) the problem is Bowen and Carriker got hurt in 2012 and then we didn’t correctly address the issue in the draft until we drafted Jonathan Allen in last year’s draft.

Some point to our pass rush as being an issue over the last few years but I think the main problem is we can’t stop the run on 1st downs and short yardage. We can’t get off the field because teams can run on us. When teams run on first downs they rarely get under 4 yards per carry, which means they have two more downs to pick 5 or 6 yards.

[MKnight82]

37 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Allen plays next to Preston Smith doesn’t he?

Hankins is a lot like Chris Baker (only with a better motor and more technique discipline vs the run) he has quickness for his size and has some pass rushing ability. 

He played all over the line last year for the Colts. O, 1, 3 & 5 technique and someone told me on Twitter he mostly played 4 technique. He has the ability to be a run stuffing NT on 1st down or move over one or 2 gaps and stuff the guard or OT to make room for Zach Brown and Foster to go make the tackles.

I thought Allen played next to Kerrigan.

Also if we were going to double dip with Hankins and a first round Dlineman I’d rather have Payne, who I think is more versatile and disruptive in the passing game than Vea.

[oldman9er]

1 hour ago, turtle28 said:

I don’t see it as a luxury. The team has given near or over 5 yards a carry on first downs and short yardage every year this decade except for 2011 when we invested heavily in 3 veteran DL (Bowen, Cofield & Carriker) the problem is Bowen and Carriker got hurt in 2012 and then we didn’t correctly address the issue in the draft until we drafted Jonathan Allen in last year’s draft.

Some point to our pass rush as being an issue over the last few years but I think the main problem is we can’t stop the run on 1st downs and short yardage. We can’t get off the field because teams can run on us. When teams run on first downs they rarely get under 4 yards per carry, which means they have two more downs to pick 5 or 6 yards.

In your scenario though, you are basically benching a player ( Ioannidis ) that I thought everyone here thought highly of. Was I mistaken on that overall impression? is he JAG? because I thought he also was effective versus the run.. that he was not the problem in your poor run defense? 

[MKnight82]

Just now, oldman9er said:

In your scenario though, you are basically benching a player ( Ioannidis ) that I thought everyone here thought highly of. Was I mistaken on that overall impression? is he JAG? because I thought he also was effective versus the run.. that he was not the problem in your poor run defense? 

Ioannidis looked good last year.  

[oldman9er]

2 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Ioannidis looked good last year.  

Cool. Yeah that was what I was led to believe of him. 

I guess I'm not really arguing much of anything, as I would be fine with Washington signing Hankins AND drafting Vea, but it does feel like a luxury

UNLESS

their Nickel 4 man line would frequently include both inside? in which case, you sacrifice a lot of pass rush inside, and feel comfortable with Allen not getting as many inside snaps.. maybe he rushes from a DE spot of that 4 man DL, but that bumps Smith off the field some too. 

[MKnight82]

24 minutes ago, oldman9er said:

Cool. Yeah that was what I was led to believe of him. 

I guess I'm not really arguing much of anything, as I would be fine with Washington signing Hankins AND drafting Vea, but it does feel like a luxury

UNLESS

their Nickel 4 man line would frequently include both inside? in which case, you sacrifice a lot of pass rush inside, and feel comfortable with Allen not getting as many inside snaps.. maybe he rushes from a DE spot of that 4 man DL, but that bumps Smith off the field some too. 

The nickle look probably wouldn't have Hankins or Vea/Payne inside, which is why acquiring both is dubious.  The nickle would probably be Kerrigan, Allen, Ioannidis, Smith.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, oldman9er said:

In your scenario though, you are basically benching a player ( Ioannidis ) that I thought everyone here thought highly of. Was I mistaken on that overall impression? is he JAG? because I thought he also was effective versus the run.. that he was not the problem in your poor run defense? 

We have a rotation of our DL and different packages. If signed/drafted Hankins and Vea would be a two down players who mostly just play on 1st down, 2nd/3rd and short and goal line. 

When we go nickel, Ioannidis would play more. The snap count allocation would work out where Allen plays the most snaps, Ioannidis, Hank and Vea all play about the same.

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

I thought Allen played next to Kerrigan.

Also if we were going to double dip with Hankins and a first round Dlineman I’d rather have Payne, who I think is more versatile and disruptive in the passing game than Vea.

We need to stuff the run. I’m tired of not having a big boy who can’t be moved in the middle. Having a 330 pound LDE and a 350 pound NT is needed when we are going to have to defend Elliot twice, Adjai twice and possible Barkley twice a year.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Payne but I don’t necessarily believe either Payne or Vea is a better pass rusher than the other. They both are good at the bull rush and have a rip move. I’ve seen both use a rip move. Either one would bring a Barry Cofield type pass rush up the middle, which would be welcomed.