Breshad Perriman: Can he be a productive WR or should he just be cut?

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, drd23 said:

Those are some serious rose coloured glasses if you think 10//77/0/29% is pretty identical to 30/5506/0/46% @diamondbull424 

I’m not saying this past season was similar. Just the rookie campaign. Heck, I’m not even saying I believe Perriman will turn it around, I’m just saying, I think there’s still a slight chance, however small that his rookie season where he was healthy in training camp and Flacco was healthy enough to push the ball down the field, might be the better representation of his talents. And thus releasing Perriman would make no sense when he could still prove to be a player.

[drd23]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

I think there’s still a slight chance, however small that his rookie season where he was healthy in training camp and Flacco was healthy enough to push the ball down the field, might be the better representation of his talents.

Were those things not true of last year also?

It feels like you're trying too hard to find the positives in the Perriman situation when I don't think they are there

[Danand]

Perriman can still succeed. His issue seems to be more mental than physical. One thing that annoyed me like crazy is how he never seemed to fight on the field.

I saw the Jaguars game live, and while the whole team imploded, Perriman from the first snap never fought to break free from the cornerbacks, and that issue was there during the entire season. Coming back to the football wasn't a thing he really did, and combined with the costly turnovers, he hurt the team a lot - although the coaching staff should never have put him out there to begin with.

If he somehow matures and get a better grasp of the mental aspect, whether its a confidence issue or something else, he could still be useful.

I just have to see it to believe it, as he for 3 years doesn't seem to have the mental makeup to be an NFL star.

[diamondbull424]

13 hours ago, drd23 said:

Were those things not true of last year also?

It feels like you're trying too hard to find the positives in the Perriman situation when I don't think they are there

1. Hamstring injury= Any athlete knows that hamstring injuries are one of the more difficult injuries to recover from. It’s a huge muscle group and directly impacts your speed, quickness, acceleration, balance and strength. It takes a long time to fully recover and they can flair up occasionally.

He did not suffer a hamstring injury in his 2nd year (which again, I’m considering his “rookie” season).

2.) Flacco’s back ailment directly impacted the entire offense more adversely than any injury prior to that. He had significant career lows in his passing average. Generally Flacco has had an average in the high 6s, even after recovering from tearing his ACL like in Perrimans “rookie” season, he could push the ball down the field, he was just “scared” to sit in the pocket until towards the middle of the season. His pass average as well as the production of a deep threat like Mike Wallace reflected this. Same with Perriman.

Last season, Wallace’s numbers during the first half of the season when Flacco REALLY couldn’t drive the ball downfield, especially not with any level of accuracy, effected his numbers. Later in the season, Flacco got a little better but was still underthrowing his deep balls vs overthrowing them. Wallace, as a veteran was able to make that adjustment.

Thus I will restate my point, Perriman as a young player was not able to adjust and continued to struggle. As a one trick pony, his one trick was effected in the beginning of 2017. When the hamstring wasn’t an issue in 2017, his one trick was still affected because Flacco couldn’t deliver the deep ball (which is why he dinked and dunked more than at any point in his career including when he would checkdown to Ray Rice all the time).

Right now we have two samples to judge from, 2016 and 2017. How is it fair to RELEASE Perriman based only off of only 2017? Especially considering that we chose to keep a guy like Campanaro around the entirety of his rookie contract. Campanaro showed literally 1/4 of what Perriman showed in his first two seasons, yet he got four years. Yet you guys are arguing that Perriman is so much of a scrub that he should be released.

If that’s not your argument, then what are we even talking about? That’s the entire point I’ve been arguing against the entire time, yet that somehow means I have purple colored shades on. Only I have made valid arguments as to how it’s “possible” the 2017 sample was diluted and thus we should see what 2018 brings, particularly training camp (which apparently Perriman dominated before his hamstring injury and thus why I said I’ll give him four games, since we can’t necessarily trust what happens in training camp) before completely giving up on  Perriman.

You and @Darth Pees have yet to give a clear and logical reason as to why we should release Perriman a year before his contract is up. Especially when considering all the points I’ve listed yet continued to go ignored.

[Danand]

Camp has value on special teams, is a more versatile player and didn't hurt the team by juggling balls to int's.

Chris Moore did the latter as well, but also provided a spark to the offense and yards in the return game.

Perriman showed the least of any receiver, never really fought to break free, was completely stalled in his routes by cornerbacks, showed nothing when everything was set for him to perform, commited very costly drops, regressed in terms of hands (his awareness was already questinable in 2016). He basically regressed, the ST coach literally said he didn't want Perriman on special teams, and he hasn't been able to stay healthy. If he wasn't a 1. round pick, we wouldn't discuss whether he should stay or not, we would just talk about when he would be cut.

The guy is a wild card, and if we get wide receivers who perform better, I can't see a reason not to cut ties with him.

Nelson Agholor could bounce back, maybe Perriman can as well, but lets not try too hard to find excuses for the guy.

[drd23]

@diamondbull424 I never said anything about releasing Perriman.  I just pointed out that you appear to be twisting yourself into knots to come up with reasons as to why Perriman might all of a sudden become a productive WR

[diamondbull424]

56 minutes ago, drd23 said:

@diamondbull424 I never said anything about releasing Perriman.  I just pointed out that you appear to be twisting yourself into knots to come up with reasons as to why Perriman might all of a sudden become a productive WR

Exactly. However I only stated such reasons in counter to the position that  Perriman SHOULD BE CUT, as stated in this thread by @Darth Pees

If one randomly stumbles upon an argument of someone utilizing reductio ad absurdum to prove a point and argues how absurd that point is, who is truly the one in the wrong?

My “knots” regarding Perriman all add up to reasons as to why him being given a chance to COMPETE for his job in 2018 should be a no brainer. If you only read half the argument and deem that argument as “tying knots” and “wearing purple shades” who really has misinterpreted the situation?

Whats more, I have at least added content for why it is reasonable to think Perriman “could” turn it around, all the while still repeatedly stating, that I HIGHLY DOUBT that he will turn it around. If he looks lost in training camp, so be it.

But even IF he dominates training camp like he reportedly did in the 2017 training camp before his hamstring injuries, I’m still reserving my judgment about that until after he’s PROVEN himself in the first four regular season games before I’m willing to believe it.

That, I feel, is a reasonable position to be at with a player who has had a “solid” redshirt freshman season and a horrid sophomore campaign. Two sample sizes. Put the onus on him to prove if he can’t take the leap forward somehow.

[diamondbull424]

1 hour ago, Danand said:

Camp has value on special teams, is a more versatile player and didn't hurt the team by juggling balls to int's.

Chris Moore did the latter as well, but also provided a spark to the offense and yards in the return game.

Perriman showed the least of any receiver, never really fought to break free, was completely stalled in his routes by cornerbacks, showed nothing when everything was set for him to perform, commited very costly drops, regressed in terms of hands (his awareness was already questinable in 2016). He basically regressed, the ST coach literally said he didn't want Perriman on special teams, and he hasn't been able to stay healthy. If he wasn't a 1. round pick, we wouldn't discuss whether he should stay or not, we would just talk about when he would be cut.

The guy is a wild card, and if we get wide receivers who perform better, I can't see a reason not to cut ties with him.

Nelson Agholor could bounce back, maybe Perriman can as well, but lets not try too hard to find excuses for the guy.

I will repeat myself. If Campanaro got four years, why shouldn’t Perriman.

This is where Campanaro was three years in:

11 games

12 recs, 137 yds, 75% catch rate, 1 td, 19 yd long.

Punt returns:

10 returns, 129 yds, 12.9 avg, 0 TDs

Kick returns:

3 returns, 79 yds, 26.3 avg, 0 TDs

Campanaro flashed good hands but also showed limitations on running anything beyond short routes. He even struggled at times to separate on short routes as well. He flashed some solid special teams impact, but nothing significant enough to say he should hang around for a 4th season.

Your entire post is speaking only about 2017. Which I’ve addressed multiple times. Yet you completely ignored the point of my post.

Whats more, Perriman being a first round pick is irrelevant to this comparison to Campanaro. Because Camp hadn’t proven anything except that he couldn’t stay on the field for three years, yet he got four years. At least Perriman reportedly was dominating training camp in 2017 before his hamstring injury and had flashes in 2016. Camp showed us even less.

Perriman has similarly struggled with injuries, yet we should cut him after two seasons of production influenced by injuries, whereas Campanaro struggled with injuries, showed even less, yet deserved the opportunity he got in 2017? That’s just doesn’t sound logical.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

It's very simple:

Why we should keep Perriman? Potential to maybe become a #3 WR.

Why we should release Perriman? Cap savings, no value on ST's, no value as a WR.

[Danand]

7 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I will repeat myself. If Campanaro got four years, why shouldn’t Perriman.

This is where Campanaro was three years in:

11 games

12 recs, 137 yds, 75% catch rate, 1 td, 19 yd long.

Punt returns:

10 returns, 129 yds, 12.9 avg, 0 TDs

Kick returns:

3 returns, 79 yds, 26.3 avg, 0 TDs

Campanaro flashed good hands but also showed limitations on running anything beyond short routes. He even struggled at times to separate on short routes as well. He flashed some solid special teams impact, but nothing significant enough to say he should hang around for a 4th season.

Your entire post is speaking only about 2017. Which I’ve addressed multiple times. Yet you completely ignored the point of my post.

Whats more, Perriman being a first round pick is irrelevant to this comparison to Campanaro. Because Camp hadn’t proven anything except that he couldn’t stay on the field for three years, yet he got four years. At least Perriman reportedly was dominating training camp in 2017 before his hamstring injury and had flashes in 2016. Camp showed us even less.

Perriman has similarly struggled with injuries, yet we should cut him after two seasons of production influenced by injuries, whereas Campanaro struggled with injuries, showed even less, yet deserved the opportunity he got in 2017? That’s just doesn’t sound logical.

We pay them different amounts.

If they are to play the role as 4th/5th at their position, Camp has more value because of special teams.

Perriman has been force fed due to his draft status, we don't know what Camp would have looked like if he got the same chances.

In his healthy season that looked promising, there where also several issues, especially awareness down the field, which we hoped perriman could correct. He got worse.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, Danand said:

We pay them different amounts.

If they are to play the role as 4th/5th at their position, Camp has more value because of special teams.

Perriman has been force fed due to his draft status, we don't know what Camp would have looked like if he got the same chances.

In his healthy season that looked promising, there where also several issues, especially awareness down the field, which we hoped perriman could correct. He got worse.

That’s just the thing. There has been no “healthy” season for Perriman. He’s missed significant time in training camp every year. He tore his PCL during the first day of training camp in his true freshman season. Then tore it again after week 3 of the season landing on IR, where players aren’t allowed to practice.

His redshirt freshman season, he partially tore his ACL during a June mini camp, he missed all of training camp (again). Then he finally came back for the final preseason game, getting SOME time to practice before the season started.

Then last season after progressing and taking strides in training camp (apparently) he had a grade 2 hamstring strain that forced him to miss the entire preseason.

You say he was forcefed the ball because of his draft position and that’s true, but just because Flacco was forcefed the opportunity to quarterback the Ravens in 2017 as our starting quarterback, doesn’t mean he wasn’t affected by injuries while playing. Same with Perriman. The only difference between Perriman’s first three years and Campanaro’s first three years is that the fans feel they know more about Perriman because he was forced to play whereas Campanaro was not forced to play. He played only when fully healthy, thus boosting his efficiency numbers.

Perriman’s lower body durability is one of my biggest reasons why I’m doubtful that he will make strides because I doubt he will ever make it through a full training camp and preseason to make obvious improvements at a position that is already a difficult position to transfer to in the pros. However, if he can remain healthy the entirety of training camp and preseason, I can easily see a scenario where he’s our second/third most used receiver behind Michael Crabtree.

I can easily see a scenario where John Brown goes down with another injury (based off of the comments made by Bruce Arians on his sickle sell) and we are thus looking for a deep threat.

Then that will mean either Chris Moore, a rookie, or Breshad Perriman will have to step up as the x receiver/deep threat while the other mans the slot. The rookie likely will win one of those positions just based off draft status (most of which operate well in the slot). Thus the other slot would go to whichever player offers more as a deep threat receiver to stretch opposing defenses.

Now let’s compare Perriman and Moore’s seasons at receiver:

Chris Moore (1st two seasons):

4 starts, 28 games, 54 targets, 25 receptions, 294 yds, 11.8 avg, 3 TDs, 10.5 yards/game, 46% catch rate, 30 yd long.

Breshad Perriman (1st two seasons):

4 starts, 27 games, 101 targets, 43 receptions, 576 yds, 13.4 avg, 3 TDs, 21.3 yards/game, 43% catch rate, 54 yd long.

 

What our numbers therein shows is that Perriman essentially received double the opportunity and saw slightly less than  double the gain in bulk numbers. Chris Moore has been durable throughout both his rookie and sophomore training camp and preseasons, whereas Perriman has not. If both are given a full training camp and preseason of health, it would be interesting to see which player would win that battle.

Regardless, Chris Moore is an obvious candidate to see the field as a return specialist, but given the facts, there is no clear cut distinction between what Moore has shown as a receiver and what Perriman has shown as a receiver, in game, to say that Perriman can’t beat out Moore for a bigger receiver share of production. Especially as deep threats where we see Perriman’s longest reception was 54 yards and Moore’s was only 30 yards.

And I say all of this knowing that of the Perriman doubters in this thread (speaking of this probably could be its own thread, whichever mod reads this first), you’re probably one of the few acknowledging that he at least has SOME shot. What’s so messed up, is that I don’t/didn’t even have much hope in Perriman. But looking at the numbers, I think there are scenarios where Perriman could surprise us all. If he stays healthy this entire training camp and preseason (a big IF) then he could advance his route tree, look less confused when playing, play with greater confidence in himself, and given the floor/ceiling for both players, I could easily see Perriman winning the starting role as the deep threat.

Heck, even with John Brown healthy, I could easily see a scenario where a healthy Perriman could win the starting role because he still has a 5th year option that we can exercise if he truly does turn his career around (it also makes our front office look better for not having drafted a bust) whereas John Brown only has a one year prove it deal and obvious long term health concerns.

[drd23]

Ask and you shall receive (at least on the separate thread) DB

FWIW, I don't think he should be cut right now.  If he can't prove himself in TC, that would be another story, but I don't really see much benefit to the Ravens in releasing him now.  That said, I don't think he'll ever be anything other than a bust (and I always have), be that because of injury or because he's just not good enough as a WR to be productive in the NFL.

Also, on your point about Perriman never having a "healthy season", in my mind being healthy/uninjured and available to play as many games as possible is a skill, and one that Perriman clearly does not have and counts against him.  Having some physical gifts are of no use if you can't be relied upon to actually be on the field to use them

[DreamKid]

Breshad has lost his early pick privilege and will be treated as just another WR under contract, as he should be. It's all on him now.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, drd23 said:

Ask and you shall receive (at least on the separate thread) DB

FWIW, I don't think he should be cut right now.  If he can't prove himself in TC, that would be another story, but I don't really see much benefit to the Ravens in releasing him now.  That said, I don't think he'll ever be anything other than a bust (and I always have), be that because of injury or because he's just not good enough as a WR to be productive in the NFL.

Also, on your point about Perriman never having a "healthy season", in my mind being healthy/uninjured and available to play as many games as possible is a skill, and one that Perriman clearly does not have and counts against him.  Having some physical gifts are of no use if you can't be relied upon to actually be on the field to use them

I agree with this. This is mainly my stance. Do I think Perriman will turn it around? I find it highly doubtful.

And after arguing as a sort of devils advocate, I’m sure when Perriman fails in training camp and gets cut, certain fans will try and call me out as if I’m Perriman’s stepdad.?

I just know that there are enough precedents where him turning it around this season, wouldn’t be improbable. Thus like @baltimoreRebel stated earlier in this thread, you give him the last year of his deal to make something happen. Worst case he’s never active gameday. Best case, he steps in for an injured John Brown and beats out Chris Moore as the deep threat/#2 receiver and puts up a Torrey Smith type of 100 targets, 50 receptions, 900 yds, 6-8 TDs type of season.

If we consider 2016 as an abberation, then Perriman has no chance to reach that level. But if we consider 2017 as the abberation then Perriman definitely has a shot at reaching that level.

All that said, like you, I see durability as a skill. Which is why I’m not foolish enough to believe Perriman can turn it around. Not just because of the 2016 production, but because of the durability concerns from 2015-2017. He has a lot of soft tissue injuries. That’s the only reliable thing he’s brought to the table his entire pro career.

[sp6488]

2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Breshad has lost his early pick privilege and will be treated as just another WR under contract, as he should be. It's all on him now.

The flip side to this is that a lot of the desire to part ways with him seems to come from disappointment over what he has been to date as a first rounder.  If he had similar production and tools, but was a later round pick, I'm sure most would be in favor of seeing if he can put it all together.  This is a case where I think he's actually being harmed (perception-wise) among fans due to his first round status.

As a complete aside, I think a lot of people discuss first rounders getting more chances than other players with similar resumes.  That is often because first rounders have superior tools, pedigree, etc. that make coaches think there might be some untapped potential.  It's not simply being blinded by the pick number in most cases IMO.