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Breshad Perriman: Can he be a productive WR or should he just be cut?


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27 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

I agree with this. This is mainly my stance. Do I think Perriman will turn it around? I find it highly doubtful.

And after arguing as a sort of devils advocate, I’m sure when Perriman fails in training camp and gets cut, certain fans will try and call me out as if I’m Perriman’s stepdad.?

I just know that there are enough precedents where him turning it around this season, wouldn’t be improbable. Thus like @baltimoreRebel stated earlier in this thread, you give him the last year of his deal to make something happen. Worst case he’s never active gameday. Best case, he steps in for an injured John Brown and beats out Chris Moore as the deep threat/#2 receiver and puts up a Torrey Smith type of 100 targets, 50 receptions, 900 yds, 6-8 TDs type of season.

If we consider 2016 as an abberation, then Perriman has no chance to reach that level. But if we consider 2017 as the abberation then Perriman definitely has a shot at reaching that level.

All that said, like you, I see durability as a skill. Which is why I’m not foolish enough to believe Perriman can turn it around. Not just because of the 2016 production, but because of the durability concerns from 2015-2017. He has a lot of soft tissue injuries. That’s the only reliable thing he’s brought to the table his entire pro career.

This is what I have been arguing.

I am not confident that he will put up a good, productive season.  I have no desire to put money on that outcome.  

That said, the range of potential outcomes, given his raw talent and abilities he has flashed in 2016 (along with some handicapping due to nagging injuries), make me think he's a worthwhile lottery ticket.  Forgetting the sunk cost of his pick status, what is the cost of keeping him around?  Any cap benefits of cutting him would be largely immaterial. Maybe we could have a different late round/UDFA WR in the roster spot?  He's not preventing us from adding another FA or drafting a guy high in the draft. I just don't see the value in cutting ties with him at this point.

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36 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

This is a case where I think he's actually being harmed (perception-wise) among fans due to his first round status.

Really? Chris Moore certainly wasn't a 1st round pick and he outplayed Perriman in two phases of the game, yet no one is slamming the table for him to get more looks or chances. If he didn't have the ST value he does, you don't think the fan base would be out for his neck too?

Perriman will get his shot, but it's the end of the road. He's mentally and physically weak, his chances of overcoming both are not likely. 

Even if Perriman does magically turn into this potent offensive weapon and "develops". It doesn't mean his liabilities will then cease to exist. He'll forever be injury prone, just as Jimmy Smith is and even worse his play regresses every time he is injured. What level of production would it take to make that kind of liability worth it?

I don't even know why this is such a big discussion. Especially now, I could see the relevance maybe around TC.

 

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1 hour ago, sp6488 said:

The flip side to this is that a lot of the desire to part ways with him seems to come from disappointment over what he has been to date as a first rounder.  If he had similar production and tools, but was a later round pick, I'm sure most would be in favor of seeing if he can put it all together.  This is a case where I think he's actually being harmed (perception-wise) among fans due to his first round status.

As a complete aside, I think a lot of people discuss first rounders getting more chances than other players with similar resumes.  That is often because first rounders have superior tools, pedigree, etc. that make coaches think there might be some untapped potential.  It's not simply being blinded by the pick number in most cases IMO.

I agree with this completely. I don’t even like Perriman, but I feel as though if Darren Waller had experienced similar seasons at our tight end position, the perception might be to see what a 6’6 255 lbs tight  end with 4.4 speed compete and see if he can finally live up to his potential.

I only say that because if he gets reinstated that’s exactly how I’d feel about Waller getting a shot to compete. Athleticism like that doesn’t grow on trees. Neither does 6’2” 220 lbs receivers that run 4.2 forties.

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2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

Really? Chris Moore certainly wasn't a 1st round pick and he outplayed Perriman in two phases of the game, yet no one is slamming the table for him to get more looks or chances. If he didn't have the ST value he does, you don't think the fan base would be out for his neck too?

Perriman will get his shot, but it's the end of the road. He's mentally and physically weak, his chances of overcoming both are not likely. 

Even if Perriman does magically turn into this potent offensive weapon and "develops". It doesn't mean his liabilities will then cease to exist. He'll forever be injury prone, just as Jimmy Smith is and even worse his play regresses every time he is injured. What level of production would it take to make that kind of liability worth it?

I don't even know why this is such a big discussion. Especially now, I could see the relevance maybe around TC.

 

But that's precisely it.  Nobody is currently slamming the table to get rid of him like they are for Perriman.

Again, neither @diamondbull424 nor I are saying he WILL put it together.  We aren't saying we should rely on him for this season.  I think we're both saying that it's silly to just cut bait with him as it's almost costless to keep him for the time being as a low-risk lottery ticket.

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14 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

But that's precisely it.  Nobody is currently slamming the table to get rid of him like they are for Perriman.

Again, neither @diamondbull424 nor I are saying he WILL put it together.  We aren't saying we should rely on him for this season.  I think we're both saying that it's silly to just cut bait with him as it's almost costless to keep him for the time being as a low-risk lottery ticket.

Who is saying we should just cut him and be done with it? Cause it certainly wasn't me, yet you quoted me with this nonsense. 

There isn't a single person on the forum who doesn't understand what point you're trying to drive home, we get it. You're over-articulating a very simple concept.

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12 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Who is saying we should just cut him and be done with it? Cause it certainly wasn't me, yet you quoted me with this nonsense. 

There isn't a single person on the forum who doesn't understand what point you're trying to drive home, we get it. You're over-articulating a very simple concept.

Literally the first post of this thread is how it's "an absolute goddamn travesty" that he will be on the roster this season.

That comment, that he would be on the roster this season, was in response to another comment by Danand in another thread (this one was broken out from that one):

Quote

 

I would be more inclined to bring back Wallace for 1 more season rather than go with Hurns. Something screams "Kamar Aiken" type of receiver production from him.

Bring in DJ Moore and get it over with. Add a Deontay Burnett later in the draft. Then we got Wallace, Crabtree, Brown, Moore, Moore, Burnett and Adeboyjo/White.

That would give us a little bit of everything and have us covered for Browns 5-6 missed games and Crabtrees 1-3 games suspensions

 

Further, this was from page 2 on this thread:

Quote


It's very simple:

Why we should keep Perriman? Potential to maybe become a #3 WR.

Why we should release Perriman? Cap savings, no value on ST's, no value as a WR.

 

And I only quoted you with "this nonsense" as a parallel to your comment about "slamming the table for Moore to get more looks," which I believed to be a bit of a misrepresentation or non-reply to the points that had been made to this point in the discussion.  

The continued responses don't seem to indicate that every single last person gets it.  There have been numerous responses through various threads that indicate that not to be the case.  I will stop making that point here, however, as its obviously touched some nerve (based on your very curt response).

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I don't know what the snap count is between Perriman and Moore, but it feels like Perriman had much more chances than Moore snap wise. Chris Moore looks like he is ascending, Perriman looks like he is descending. That is why some of us are projecting him to be a potential cap/cut casualty.

Maybe Perriman somehow find a niche or role this season, where he is the 3-4 receiver and he is relieved of the pressure of being a 1. round pick. Maybe he can produce the 3-5 touchdowns and 400-500 yards a season like a Jacoby Jones. If that is his role, then he isn't useless and a non factor on 9-10 snaps like he was this season.

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4 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

And I only quoted you with "this nonsense" as a parallel to your comment about "slamming the table for Moore to get more looks," which I believed to be a bit of a misrepresentation or non-reply to the points that had been made to this point in the discussion.

"If he had similar production and tools, but was a later round pick, I'm sure most would be in favor of seeing if he can put it all together."- That's what you said to warrant my reply about Moore. I don't believe there's some early round bias against Perriman and cited a clear example of a contrast in Moore, where also no one is overly invested in getting him more opportunities on offense. You then said, "But that's precisely it.  Nobody is currently slamming the table to get rid of him like they are for Perriman.".  First of all, why would they? Moore offers clear ST value and his career trajectory is improving, Perriman has no ST value and suffered a massive regression. The example was designed to show that if anything, the bias is the other way around. Second, there just isn't this big consensus calling for Perriman to be indiscriminately cut.

31 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

The continued responses don't seem to indicate that every single last person gets it.

The only two people who seem opposed to the idea of bringing back Perriman in any capacity are Darth and maybe Dan from what I've seen. I promise you though, they get your position on the subject. 

41 minutes ago, sp6488 said:

I will stop making that point here, however, as its obviously touched some nerve (based on your very curt response).

No nerve here. Really wasn't trying to come off hostile. I just care so little about the discussion maybe I'm not monitoring my words carefully enough, that's on me.

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1 hour ago, Danand said:

I don't know what the snap count is between Perriman and Moore, but it feels like Perriman had much more chances than Moore snap wise.

2017
Chris Moore - 375 snap, 38 targets, 18 receptions, 248yds, 3TDs, 47.4% catch percentage
Breshad Perriman - 387 snaps, 35 targets, 10 receptions, 77 yards, 0TDs, 28.6% catch percentage

Fwiw, here's the target data for Perriman in 2016 too - 484 snaps, 66 targets, 33 receptions, 499 yards, 3TDs, 50% catch percentage

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1 hour ago, Danand said:

I don't know what the snap count is between Perriman and Moore, but it feels like Perriman had much more chances than Moore snap wise. Chris Moore looks like he is ascending, Perriman looks like he is descending. That is why some of us are projecting him to be a potential cap/cut casualty.

Maybe Perriman somehow find a niche or role this season, where he is the 3-4 receiver and he is relieved of the pressure of being a 1. round pick. Maybe he can produce the 3-5 touchdowns and 400-500 yards a season like a Jacoby Jones. If that is his role, then he isn't useless and a non factor on 9-10 snaps like he was this season.

He descended over one season though. We only have two seasons as sample size.

This logic would be akin to me going to a restaurant twice. The first time I get adequate service and tip the waiter a standard 20% tip. The second time I get crappy service and only provide a 4% tip. Now to be clear, such pettiness still makes me a horrible person.

However, how can one logically assume that I will tip only 4% moving forward when I have produced too completely different tip outcomes with different variables?

The reasonable scenario is to conclude which result was more true after my third incident. Especially if there are enough precedents where other patrons have shown to go from being poor tippers to excellent tippers. If there is a solid chance that I could tip 20% again, even a chance that I might tip 40% with excellent service, why not give me another chance to prove my worth to the restaurant?

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FYI your tip scenario doesn't make as much sense to us non-Americans as our wait staff get paid a semi-decent wage, and we therefore don't have the same sort of tipping culture to subsidise their pay ;)

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9 minutes ago, drd23 said:

FYI your tip scenario doesn't make as much sense to us non-Americans as our wait staff get paid a semi-decent wage, and we therefore don't have the same sort of tipping culture to subsidise their pay ;)

Well that’s 10 minutes I’ll never get back.??

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1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Now to be clear, such pettiness still makes me a horrible person.

If only the new forum allowed for sig quotes like the old one.... ^_^

As for the topic at hand. I tend to side with @diamondbull424 here. As horrible as he has been, he's still a former first round pick who deserves to at least play out the remainder of his contract. The cap savings from cutting him wouldn't really allow us to sign any notable free agents that are left on the market, so unless he completely falls flat on his face in training camp and gets out played by all the other receivers on the roster, what's the harm in keeping him?

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10 minutes ago, RavensTillIDie said:

If only the new forum allowed for sig quotes like the old one.... ^_^

As for the topic at hand. I tend to side with @diamondbull424 here. As horrible as he has been, he's still a former first round pick who deserves to at least play out the remainder of his contract. The cap savings from cutting him wouldn't really allow us to sign any notable free agents that are left on the market, so unless he completely falls flat on his face in training camp and gets out played by all the other receivers on the roster, what's the harm in keeping him?

That was honestly my biggest turnoff with the new look, that and having to play around with it to figure out the new features.

The “Thanks Joe Flacco” sigs  were my favorite ones. That and I was sad to see my Justin Tucker sig have to fade to black. ?‍♀️ 

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12 minutes ago, RavensTillIDie said:

As horrible as he has been, he's still a former first round pick who deserves the chance to at least play out the remainder of his contract.

EFA.

If his play warrants it and there are no better options to improve the roster, then he can play out his contract.  If there are better options however, it just comes down to a cost-benefit analysis of whether he should be cut, or someone else

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