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Is CJ Mosley elite?


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1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

I take PFF grades for 0 weight. So once you multiply by that, there is no difference to make. Bulk tackles weren't part of my query or my definition of disruptions.

I've explained to you many times that DVOA accounts for who we play, so the opening line of your post is completely wrong. If we played bad teams, our defense held them to even worse success rates.

..and then you list off a bunch of "backup QBs" we we're lucky to face

..and then I point out we missed playing exactly ONE QB who played over half a season, and Carr wasn't even average last year

I know nobody takes PFF grades for anything but 35th graded LB gives you some vague interpretation of how he's viewed.

DVOA accounts for who you played, but there's still no beating around the bush that we faced a cupcake schedule of bad QB's, headlined by guys like Brissett, Hundley, whoever was QB'ing the Texans after Watson left, and whoever Derek Carr's backup was that one game. Yeah we faced a few backup QB's, but mainly we just faced a schedule of bad QB's as a group. Context is always important, and yeah at face value our 3rd ranked DVOA defense was impressive - until you watch the 2nd and 1st ranked DVOA defenses in Minnesota and Jacksonville and recognize they're on a completely different level and can actually go toe to toe with top ranked offenses, unlike ours.

 

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2 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

I'm firmly in the Mosely is overrated train FWIW.

Good player, yes. Great player, no. You can't have a glaring hole in your game and be considered great.

And the thing with Mosley is, that glaring hole was created by himself. Once he sheds weight and gets his speed back, he's a damn good complete linebacker. Whoever told him to gain weight to play the run better needs to get lost.

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I think with a better running mate, the DL can play better gap integrity vs going for the splash plays. That ability to free up our backers would mean, Mosley can cut a solid 10-15 lbs and get back to form.

I think the best way to improve our defense to take it from good to elite, is by:

1. Our corners getting healthy

2. Adding a top notch running mate for Mosley.

We do that and the rest of the defensive pieces should fall into place. I have great hope that our OLBs from 2017 should really progress with an entire professional offseason under their belt and a year of an NFL strength and conditioning program. Our backers usually progress really well in their second year.

If everything falls into place our defense could be really special next year... though I’m sure that means we’ll endure some critical defensive injuries and we’ll experience nothing of the sort.

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I think Mosley is asked to do too much in our defense as it’s set up... if we let him have the role that Ray had at the end of his career he would look like the best 3-4 ILB in the league every game instead of just half of the Games lol... instead we ask him to be different players depending on the circumstances and we run him thin because we don’t have players who can consistently do their job in the positions that are supposed to help the inside backer in a 3-4 scheme... .Yall do realize despite all this fuss he is still the best inside backer in the AFC lol.. and he’s only like 26... some of y’all tripping... Mosley is our best player... I mean it’s teally Jimmy but he always hurt... so imo it’s Mosley 

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6 minutes ago, EastsideEZ said:

I think Mosley is asked to do too much in our defense as it’s set up... if we let him have the role that Ray had at the end of his career he would look like the best 3-4 ILB in the league every game instead of just half of the Games lol... instead we ask him to be different players depending on the circumstances and we run him thin because we don’t have players who can consistently do their job in the positions that are supposed to help the inside backer in a 3-4 scheme... .Yall do realize despite all this fuss he is still the best inside backer in the AFC lol.. and he’s only like 26... some of y’all tripping... Mosley is our best player... I mean it’s teally Jimmy but he always hurt... so imo it’s Mosley 

Meh. I’d say our best defensive player is still Suggs. Mosley might be a better ILB than Suggs is an edge threat, but in terms of overall ability, I’ll take Suggs and his impact over Mosley.

Though I don’t disagree that Mosley is a top 3 player on our defense. Especially when he plays at a lighter weight. Lewis towards the end of his career wasn’t at his best. But even with reduced athleticism, his instincts were off the charts elite. Mosley has really good instincts, but not elite.

TBH instincts is why I know Roquan Smith will eclipse Edmunds, that’s the one thing you can’t teach. But that’s another topic entirely, Mosley has really good instincts, but his athleticism is what allows him to be at his best. The more weight he gains, the more he robs himself of his best attributes. If he cuts weight, he’s one of the better pass coverage backers, but at his current weight he’s definktely below average.

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The criticism of Mosley isn't appearing out of thin air, you'd be hard pressed to find a respected voice within the fandom that hasn't noticed a lack of impact from him. Some cite injuries, others cite weight. He's just never been the elite or even great player some fans have made him out to be. 

Mosley is stuck in a weird place where he doesn't have the strength or power to be a factor against strong runners and pass catchers, routinely players don't go down on the first hit or just truck through him. Then in coverage he flashes above average ability when he's allowed to float, but struggles mightily when man responsibilities materialize quickly, especially against TEs. If he drops weight, some fluidity will return but he'll also be weaker and more susceptible to injuries as his durability concerns are already increasing.This has always been the case, it's kind of who he is as a player.

This year though new problems have emerged. Mosley showed indecisiveness, had problems diagnosing, his stack and shed issues got worse, durability is becoming a question. There just isn't a whole lot going right for him as a player. He has good instincts, better than some even considered "good" LBs, but his ability to pull the trigger just isn't there right now. That could be the effects of concussions, subconsciously making him gun shy of the impact point where he'd rather just get them at a softer pursuit angle. Zach Orr took away a lot of the hunt responsibilities that Mosley had, and with Orr gone more is on Mosley. Instincts don't mean anything if they aren't acted on, or simply can't be.

That's all him as a player too. He isn't just a player for us though, he's a designated leader on defense, the phase of the game where we've staked claim as our defining franchise trademark. Which is where a bigger problem emerges. He's weak and imo an ineffective soft presence that we're just accepting as the centerpiece of our defense and in some ways identity. I don't question the level of respect he owns in the locker room, leaders can be respected but wholly ineffective. He's by all accounts a great guy, that has been celebrated by every football program he's ever been a part of, but he just isn't built to be the centerpiece leader of a defense. Point me in the direction of a great defense that's been led or key cogged by a guy like Mosley.

The narrative that Mosley is 3., to Kuechly's 1. and Bobby's 2. That is becoming all too commonplace with some in the fandom, just isn't true. The myth of Mosley isn't being bought by voices outside the fandom anymore either. Good luck finding someone willing to bang the table that Mosley is a better player than Deion Jones, Lavonte David, Telvin Smith, or Reuben Foster. That's just to quickly name a few of the big ones. We're no longer in an NFL where fans and analysts just blindly accept popular stats as the be all end all for player value, especially on defense. Mosley's failings and shortcomings are becoming so apparent his, at times, gaudy stat figures can't mask them.

I have no faith in Mosley's ability to excel with either the leadership or impact requirements of the Mike  LB position within our defense, and absolutely not at the price he is going to command. He's definitely no junk man Jack LB, he's no Sam LB either, and with how quickly all Will LBs are simply becoming third safeties it's hard to see a fit there as well. Bottom line, Mosley is an overrated player with a temperamental skill set. His weaknesses are being exploited by offensive minds superior to our defensive ones in an increasingly match up league. That coupled with his regressing player profile and lack of value as a tone setter or leader, make it hard to justify an extension for him at this time.

No one is making the argument that he doesn't possess above average qualities, but the impact he's bringing to the table right now is in no way worth the price he'll command, and if he's asking for elite LB money that kind of impact never existed. 

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13 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I think with a better running mate, the DL can play better gap integrity vs going for the splash plays. That ability to free up our backers would mean, Mosley can cut a solid 10-15 lbs and get back to form.

I think the best way to improve our defense to take it from good to elite, is by:

1. Our corners getting healthy

2. Adding a top notch running mate for Mosley.

We do that and the rest of the defensive pieces should fall into place. I have great hope that our OLBs from 2017 should really progress with an entire professional offseason under their belt and a year of an NFL strength and conditioning program. Our backers usually progress really well in their second year.

If everything falls into place our defense could be really special next year... though I’m sure that means we’ll endure some critical defensive injuries and we’ll experience nothing of the sort.

I'm confused here. What I'm reading is that you're implying that since we don't have another pro bowler lined up next to Mosley, that our DL are not doing their jobs, which then makes Mosley not do his job better? To me, that sounds absurd because it seems like all the blame for Mosley not being as good as he should be is being placed on everyone BUT Mosley himself...

Where is that gif of the Bengals RB just simply running right past Mosley as he struggles to recognize the play and then struggles to move in space? Adding a great player next to Mosley isn't gonna fix that. We had no critical defensive injuries this past year, and Mosley still looked bad in space. 

Like I said, I really think it's as simple as him cutting that weight and getting back down to his college weight so he can actually run again. Adding a guy next to him isn't gonna make him play better in space. In fact, it may just move him to a 2-down backer.

 

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6 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

Where is that gif of the Bengals RB just simply running right past Mosley as he struggles to recognize the play and then struggles to move in space?

I think you're talking about this one, not the best look for our elite LB.

 

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1 hour ago, Darth Pees said:

I'm confused here. What I'm reading is that you're implying that since we don't have another pro bowler lined up next to Mosley, that our DL are not doing their jobs, which then makes Mosley not do his job better? To me, that sounds absurd because it seems like all the blame for Mosley not being as good as he should be is being placed on everyone BUT Mosley himself...

Where is that gif of the Bengals RB just simply running right past Mosley as he struggles to recognize the play and then struggles to move in space? Adding a great player next to Mosley isn't gonna fix that. We had no critical defensive injuries this past year, and Mosley still looked bad in space. 

Like I said, I really think it's as simple as him cutting that weight and getting back down to his college weight so he can actually run again. Adding a guy next to him isn't gonna make him play better in space. In fact, it may just move him to a 2-down backer.

 

I’m confused here. What I’m reading here is that because Mosley isn’t anorexic, his running mate is someone that has no ability to make splash plays or play well in coverage or play well against the run, our DL then didn’t consistently practice gap integrity, Mosley thus wasn’t a defensive savant? To me, that sounds absurd because that sounds like I am just making a strawman argument by creating a list of assumptions that were never truly stated and then feigning outrage over my own loosely based interpretations that I was supposedly confused about in the first place. I shall refuse to ask for clarification on any points made and continue to be outraged by such arguments.

Where is that gif where Mosley shows he doesn’t always make a poor play, but actually makes good ones too?

cj-mosley-fumbles-into-end-zone-on-int-a

^^^ Oh right there.

Adding a great player next to Mosley isn’t going to keep him from doing that. And it’s not even like Tavon Young tore his ACL, Brandon Williams was out for games, Jimmy Smith was playing on a sore Achilles all season, none of that really pertains to Mosley’s playmaking ability or his health, but I just wanted to mention it regardless.

At the end of the day, I think it’s as simple as how months ago, I stated that Mosley needed to cut weight to get back to top form when this discussion was initially brought up. How in this very thread I have stated that very same position, a position that has not changed. 

Speaking of positions changing, it’s funny how you’ve finally come to the conclusion that Mosley losing weight will cure his movement issues and are seemingly acting as though this was your argument the entire time, whereas months ago when I argued that point, this was not your position in the slightest. Glad to see you’ve finally come around.

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In terms of actually clarifying my point, I also know that this defense has other concerns besides just Mosley’s declined play. Granted, he plays in a defense where he’s having to be a coverage linebacker while also taking on lead block responsibilities from 300 lbs lineman because our DL aren’t consistently practicing gap integrity (likely because they don’t trust a guy like Peanut to have the defense’s back and make plays), while also having to remain durable for the entirety of the season. 

Thus when I comment on a better running mate and improved gap integrity, I don’t use those statements as a means to excuse Mosley, but as a means as to how our defense will take the next step in becoming elite. They will never be elite if the DL can’t trust the LBs to make plays behind them due to a lack of mobility (Mosley) or ability (Peanut) and thus get too greedy and try to make those plays themselves vs manning their responsibilities. Mosley equally isn’t going to be able to maintain durability and mobility (without gaining weight) if he can’t trust his DL to consistently keep him clean either. Thus a better running mate would create better trust from the DL and protection for the LBs. It’s simple defensive psychology.

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Y’all kill me lol... as trash as just about every other player is on our team y’all nitpick every part of the few good players we actually have... I ain’t saying Mosley is perfect but outside of kuechly I wouldn’t take any ilb over Mosley and if there was a redraft from his class he would be a top 10 pick... our defensive system sucks and utilizes 0 individuals to their strengths matter of fact our coordinator had a way of highlighting individuals weaknesses... but barring injury Mosley will be a 4 time all pro in his 5 year rookie contract... that’s elite in my book 

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22 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’m confused here. What I’m reading here is that because Mosley isn’t anorexic, his running mate is someone that has no ability to make splash plays or play well in coverage or play well against the run, our DL then didn’t consistently practice gap integrity, Mosley thus wasn’t a defensive savant? To me, that sounds absurd because that sounds like I am just making a strawman argument by creating a list of assumptions that were never truly stated and then feigning outrage over my own loosely based interpretations that I was supposedly confused about in the first place. I shall refuse to ask for clarification on any points made and continue to be outraged by such arguments.

Where is that gif where Mosley shows he doesn’t always make a poor play, but actually makes good ones too?

cj-mosley-fumbles-into-end-zone-on-int-a

^^^ Oh right there.

Adding a great player next to Mosley isn’t going to keep him from doing that. And it’s not even like Tavon Young tore his ACL, Brandon Williams was out for games, Jimmy Smith was playing on a sore Achilles all season, none of that really pertains to Mosley’s playmaking ability or his health, but I just wanted to mention it regardless.

At the end of the day, I think it’s as simple as how months ago, I stated that Mosley needed to cut weight to get back to top form when this discussion was initially brought up. How in this very thread I have stated that very same position, a position that has not changed. 

Speaking of positions changing, it’s funny how you’ve finally come to the conclusion that Mosley losing weight will cure his movement issues and are seemingly acting as though this was your argument the entire time, whereas months ago when I argued that point, this was not your position in the slightest. Glad to see you’ve finally come around.

You do realize that play was from 2016, right? And kind of highlights the point that when Mosley doesn't put on extra weight he's still good...which has been my point this entire time! haha

For me, it seems you're blaming Mosley's regression on everyone except Mosley. "Oh the DL had to play different because of Peanut...." "Oh well maybe if we didn't have Peanut next to him...." Those are extraneous factors and don't really factor into Mosley's inability to cover TE's or RB's or move in space this past year. The gif provided was evidence of that, and if you need an entire games-worth of footage, watch the 2nd Steelers game. They ran guys across Mosley's face all night long and he couldn't keep up.

Quote

Speaking of positions changing, it’s funny how you’ve finally come to the conclusion that Mosley losing weight will cure his movement issues and are seemingly acting as though this was your argument the entire time, whereas months ago when I argued that point, this was not your position in the slightest. Glad to see you’ve finally come around.

I'm pretty sure, as in 99% sure, this has been my argument since the start of this. Let me go back and look, though.

From January 10:

Quote

and obviously we need to upgrade MLB #2 and Mosley needs to be shed some weight and get his athleticism back.

If there's a comment you made that I argued with earlier than that, I'm all ears.

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8 hours ago, Darth Pees said:

You do realize that play was from 2016, right? And kind of highlights the point that when Mosley doesn't put on extra weight he's still good...which has been my point this entire time! haha

For me, it seems you're blaming Mosley's regression on everyone except Mosley. "Oh the DL had to play different because of Peanut...." "Oh well maybe if we didn't have Peanut next to him...." Those are extraneous factors and don't really factor into Mosley's inability to cover TE's or RB's or move in space this past year. The gif provided was evidence of that, and if you need an entire games-worth of footage, watch the 2nd Steelers game. They ran guys across Mosley's face all night long and he couldn't keep up.

I'm pretty sure, as in 99% sure, this has been my argument since the start of this. Let me go back and look, though.

From January 10:

If there's a comment you made that I argued with earlier than that, I'm all ears.

My entire quote of your post above was simply a satire. I simply constructed a post as if I were a different type of poster that saw points, warped them into something not stated, and then over exaggerate those absurdities in the most negative vein possible. I mean, I assumed that was obvious, but I suppose it wasn’t...

December 18, 2017

Diamondbull424

[4. ILB- I’ve been thinking about this more and more. The defense is missing “something” and we keep hearing about how our safeties are missing tackles and/or aren’t physical enough and that could largely be alievated with a physical linebacker. Mosley has been getting more and more banged up and started to make less splash plays since his running mate has gone from the old school thumper type of Darryl Smith/Albert McClellan (250 lbs) to a converted safety Patrick Onwauser (218 lbs). Zack Orr was his last quality running matter and he was 225 lbs. Having a better running mate that can help to take on blocks should reignite Mosley and allow him to cut a little weight to be more nimble in coverage.]

[I kind of spoke about that in my post just now, but just remember back to what was it 2005 or so when Ray Lewis started to get a little banged up with a wrist injury and then a few other ailments because he was taking on more and more blocks? The organization then answered by drafting Haloti Ngata to keep him clean. Well I think Mosley is in the same boat. He has the big guys in front, but he has a jelly donut beside him. Mosley was never a “thumper” type and has had to add bulk (like Lewis) to be able to sustain the added abuse. I think if we add a bigger running mate Mosley can afford to shed some weight and go back to being as affective in coverage as he has been in the past.]

This is the thread where the Mosley needing to lose weight argument that I presented was initially brought up, I made it as a comparison point to Lewis’ 2005 season where he initially bulked up to 255 lbs to (in Ray Lewis’ words) “handle the abuse from taking on blocks.”

Mosley similarly bulked up in 2017 after his running mate was 6’0” 218 lbs Patrick Onwauser vs 6’0” 235 lbs Zac Orr. He played much better in coverage with Orr being able to alternate with taking on blocks and cover linebackers. Neither were thumpers nor dinebackers. But overall backers. In 2017, Mosley bulked up but was still utilized as an overall backer, making him look worse.

In terms of your continuous strawman argument that I have excused Mosley because of his running mate and his dline, I will not entertain those absurdities any longer. You can either decide to read what I wrote (along with my many clarifications dating back to December) or you can decide to continue to be mystified by claims that I’ve never stated.

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