Debo

[warfelg]

4 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

what does colbert know about edge rushers anyways?  Jarvis, now dupree? That is a decade of starters that shouldn't have been starting and on the team after a few years. 

On the flip he was around for Porter, Hagens, Harrison. 

Colbert has been a mixed bag for picks at every position. The reason for the lower results in edge lately is the increase in 3-4. 

If this was 2007, a guy like Von Miller would drop due to size. Landry would be seen as a 3rd round pick due to tweener size. 

But the increase of variable fronts and 3-4’s has increased the need to draft these types of guys. 

[warfelg]

And I want to add:

Early 2000's 3-4 teams: New England, Pittsburgh, Baltimore....

2018 teams running a 3-4: New England (variable front), New York Giants, New York Jets, Baltimore Ravens, Washington Redskins, Atlanta Falcons (variable front), New Orleans Saints (variable front), Tennessee Titans, Pittsburgh Steelers, Cleveland Browns, Chicago Bears, Green Bay Packers, Kansas City Chiefs, Arizona Cardinals (variable front), Denver Broncos (variable front), Seattle Seahawks (variable front), San Francisco, Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Chargers, Oakland/Vegas Raiders.

And you wonder why it's harder to find those guys.  This is why I want to go to more of a 4-3 based variable front.  Much easier to find those guys now.

[JLambert58]

1 hour ago, 3rivers said:

what does colbert know about edge rushers anyways?  Jarvis, now dupree? That is a decade of starters that shouldn't have been starting and on the team after a few years. 

Good point.  Well he got Watt right and Chickillo is decent for a 6th rounder, but I agree, he's whiffed too many times.  Hoping Keion Adams can show something this year.  Wouldn't mind another year of doubling down.

[warfelg]

24 minutes ago, JLambert58 said:

Good point.  Well he got Watt right and Chickillo is decent for a 6th rounder, but I agree, he's whiffed too many times.  Hoping Keion Adams can show something this year.  Wouldn't mind another year of doubling down.

Again: Porter, Hagans, Harrison, Woodley?  All Colbert finds.

[JLambert58]

18 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Again: Porter, Hagans, Harrison, Woodley?  All Colbert finds.

Nope, not Porter.  He was drafted before Colbert arrived.  And Harrison was undrafted.  Three quality starters drafted and one great UDFA at a critical position in 18 years?  Not a good track record no matter how you slice it.  

[warfelg]

3 minutes ago, JLambert58 said:

Nope, not Porter.  He was drafted before Colbert arrived.  Four quality starters drafted at a critical position in 18 years?  Not a good track record no matter how you slice it.  

Sorry Porter was the year before Colbert.

But it helps make my point.  ROLB between Porter and Harrison was locked in for 13 of Colbert's 17 (they haven't played or drafted the 2018 season yet) seasons.  He hasn't really needed to get a quality player there but once.

On the other side Haggans and Woodley covered 2000-2013.  Worilds the next year while filling in nicely in 2013 for Woodley, which I forgot about because he retired as soon as FA hit, and he was good too.  So that's 14 years on the LOLB that have been covered.

 

So we're going to make a big deal about a pure bust, and an average starter being drafted in an era when more teams are looking for these guys.  Like I've said, there's a time when some of these highly drafted pass rushers would have fell to us because they were tweeners.  If Woodley, Haggans, Worilds were in this draft I would be willing that they would all be mid-1st round picks because everyone is looking for them.

So he managed to find/draft Woodley, Haggans, Worilds, Harrison when we needed them.  They gave us a long run.  He's drafted one flat out bust in Jones.  And an ok player in Dupree (I think he get's more hate than he should but that's another story).  I would say he hasn't done bad at all, and it's more the change in the NFL than Colbert not being able to find it.

[JLambert58]

15 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Sorry Porter was the year before Colbert.

But it helps make my point.  ROLB between Porter and Harrison was locked in for 13 of Colbert's 17 (they haven't played or drafted the 2018 season yet) seasons.  He hasn't really needed to get a quality player there but once.

On the other side Haggans and Woodley covered 2000-2013.  Worilds the next year while filling in nicely in 2013 for Woodley, which I forgot about because he retired as soon as FA hit, and he was good too.  So that's 14 years on the LOLB that have been covered.

 

So we're going to make a big deal about a pure bust, and an average starter being drafted in an era when more teams are looking for these guys.  Like I've said, there's a time when some of these highly drafted pass rushers would have fell to us because they were tweeners.  If Woodley, Haggans, Worilds were in this draft I would be willing that they would all be mid-1st round picks because everyone is looking for them.

So he managed to find/draft Woodley, Haggans, Worilds, Harrison when we needed them.  They gave us a long run.  He's drafted one flat out bust in Jones.  And an ok player in Dupree (I think he get's more hate than he should but that's another story).  I would say he hasn't done bad at all, and it's more the change in the NFL than Colbert not being able to find it.

Colbert's already had 18 not counting this year.  I'll give you Worilds, he was decent and potentially could have been good if he was resigned.  I was a bigger fan of him than most on here. 

So Colbert got at least half of what he needed.  You can defend him if you want, but to say he's done a good job keeping the shelves stocked with OLBs would be a big stretch.  

[warfelg]

1 minute ago, JLambert58 said:

Colbert's already had 18 not counting this year.  I'll give you Worilds, he was decent and potentially could have been good if he was resigned.  I was a bigger fan of him than most on here. 

So Colbert got at least half of what he needed.  You can defend him if you want, but to say he's done a good job keeping the shelves stocked with OLBs would be a big stretch.  

I look at years that we haven't had to worry about the position, and the fact that the position is becoming in demand.  That's not defending him.  That's looking at the reality of the situation.  In a span of 13 years, he only needed to replace 2 guys at that position.  I would say that's pretty good.

What you're arguing is his recent track record at the position is not as good, and while I would agree, it's also harder to find players at that position.

[JLambert58]

16 minutes ago, warfelg said:

In a span of 13 years, he only needed to replace 2 guys at that position.

This is a very black and white way of looking at it.  Woodley had injuries, etc.  The fact is, the more talent you have at a position, the better the competition and the shallower the dropoff between starter and backup.  Ultimately Colbert / Tomlin's lack of success at OLB in the last 5 years (in particular) may have cost this team a championship.  And having to sign a 38 year old James Harrison is really a desperation move that speaks to their failures.   

[warfelg]

8 minutes ago, JLambert58 said:

This is a very black and white way of looking at it.  Woodley had injuries, etc.  The fact is, the more talent you have at a position, the better the competition and the shallower the dropoff between starter and backup.  Ultimately Colbert / Tomlin's lack of success at OLB in the last 5 years (in particular) may have cost this team a championship.  And having to sign a 38 year old James Harrison is really a desperation move that speaks to their failures.   

And that was Worilds that filled in for Woodley.  

Again, like I said, the track record of that position was much better when not as many teams played 3-4.  That's had an impact on not only the quality of the players available, but the ability to get those players later.  Think about it, I named 4 guys that covered the position well over a decade and not one of them was a 1st round pick.  

The issue is he isn't good at finding talent there, it's that it's harder to find hidden gems at the position like we once did.  That's a big distinction to make.

[JLambert58]

3 minutes ago, warfelg said:

Again, like I said, the track record of that position was much better when not as many teams played 3-4.  That's had an impact on not only the quality of the players available, but the ability to get those players later. 

Of course, it's easier to find players at the position when most teams are playing a 4-3.  But that only emphasizes that when the competition for 3-4 OLB stiffened, the drafting suffered...  a lot.  

I don't think anyone cares whether they are first round picks or UDFAs or anywhere in between, as long as they are quality players.    

[Big Snack]

I don't think Colbert's drafting of OLB has been great but it hasn't been doom and gloom like whats being implied. Still the biggest fact remains that he had the position covered for the large majority of his time with guys like porter, Harrison, Woodley, Worilds, and Haggans. Saying he has been horrible because he had some above average to great starters locked in for all that time is like saying he is horrible at drafting great QBs because he has yet to replace Ben with a top 5 qb. 

[Chieferific]

22 minutes ago, Big Snack said:

I don't think Colbert's drafting of OLB has been great but it hasn't been doom and gloom like whats being implied. Still the biggest fact remains that he had the position covered for the large majority of his time with guys like porter, Harrison, Woodley, Worilds, and Haggans. Saying he has been horrible because he had some above average to great starters locked in for all that time is like saying he is horrible at drafting great QBs because he has yet to replace Ben with a top 5 qb. 

 

[warfelg]

@Chieferific And that next sentence he covers why he included that one.  Yes Worilds was above average no matter what people tend to think about him.

[JLambert58]

5 hours ago, Big Snack said:

I don't think Colbert's drafting of OLB has been great but it hasn't been doom and gloom like whats being implied. Still the biggest fact remains that he had the position covered for the large majority of his time with guys like porter, Harrison, Woodley, Worilds, and Haggans. Saying he has been horrible because he had some above average to great starters locked in for all that time is like saying he is horrible at drafting great QBs because he has yet to replace Ben with a top 5 qb. 

Big Snack, if you had read the entirety of the 80 page thread that War and I had last night, you would realize Joey Porter was already on the team when Mr. Colbert arrived.  

The fact of the matter is, the only good OLB he has drafted since 2010 is T.J. Watt, and since 2007 if you don't count Worilds.