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Who do you choose at 4? (No trade down option)


candyman93

Pick at 4  

69 members have voted

  1. 1. Who do you choose?

    • Saquon Barkley
      22
    • Bradley Chubb
      40
    • Denzel Ward
      4
    • Other player
      3


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I'm on the fence with this one. Great topic. I've read everyone's take and i'm still not coming to who. I can understand the want for Chubb/Barkley and the need and that's why i'm so stuck.

finding a pass rusher is harder than finding a RB.......So I'm going to roll with Chubb. Sony Michal in the 2nd I hope. 

 

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Barkley.

 

Why do people love Chubb so much? Watch his tape. Average athletically. Wins with hustle and by playing against some bum OT's in the ACC. He is a very good run defender, but I want a stud pass rusher. He doesn't bend the edge or win with athleticism. He wins with his motor. I don't think NFL OT's are going to have problems mirroring him outside and I expect him to be solid, but never an impact pass rusher.

Then compare him to Barkley, who is a freaking superstar. He's an elite runner, pass catcher, and return man. With elite character. Bring Barkley to me.

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22 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Why do people love Chubb so much? Watch his tape. Average athletically. Wins with hustle and by playing against some bum OT's in the ACC. He is a very good run defender, but I want a stud pass rusher. He doesn't bend the edge or win with athleticism. He wins with his motor. I don't think NFL OT's are going to have problems mirroring him outside and I expect him to be solid, but never an impact pass rusher.

I can see this.  I don’t view Chubb as a Bosa/Garrett/Clowney/Mack type of player.  I do think he’ll be a decent player though.

22 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

Then compare him to Barkley, who is a freaking superstar. He's an elite runner, pass catcher, and return man. With elite character. Bring Barkley to me.

I’d argue against that.  

He bounces too much to the outside and doesn’t finish runs with the strength/power a guy his size should.  He runs like a scat back tbh.

He’s a great overall prospect, but as far as running and grinding between the tackles (where NFL backs make their money) he’s in no way elite.

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10 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

Barkley.

Why do people love Chubb so much? Watch his tape. Average athletically. Wins with hustle and by playing against some bum OT's in the ACC. He is a very good run defender, but I want a stud pass rusher. He doesn't bend the edge or win with athleticism. He wins with his motor. I don't think NFL OT's are going to have problems mirroring him outside and I expect him to be solid, but never an impact pass rusher.

Then compare him to Barkley, who is a freaking superstar. He's an elite runner, pass catcher, and return man. With elite character. Bring Barkley to me.

This is a sort of our bad luck draft class (except for Darnold #1 at QB, of course.)

The best D guy available to us at #4 is meh; the best O guy is a RB with significant limitations.

Punt.

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24 minutes ago, bruceb said:

The best D guy available to us at #4 is meh; the best O guy is a RB with significant limitations.

Barkley has significant limitations? I don't get this. If his limitations are significant, then every draft prospect in this class must have even more significant limitations. 99.9% of people that actually do their homework have Barkley as either #1 or #2 in this class (Nelson could be 1). I don't think Barkley has any real limitations. He's not a Leonard Fournette truck between the tackles, but consider this: He dominated by bouncing things outside because his OL was a hodge podge of dog poop. He's a big dude that isn't afraid of contact. The only thing people can critique him on is the fact that there's not a whole lot of tape of him running inside. But if you watch the tape, their OL is getting crushed and he has to bounce out....which he does successfully most of the time. I can't fault him for bouncing things in college. It remains to be seen what he'll do behind a good interior OL that can actually give him creases to run in up the gut. Going back to his freshman season, Penn State's OL was much better. Barkley was awesome running between the tackles and getting those grind-it-out yards. When their OL fell off a cliff and their passing game started to dwindle as well, teams swarmed the middle and forced Barkley to bounce. Which he did. To the tune of gigantic heisman candidate numbers.

If Barkley has significant limitations, then every RB prospect ever had significant limitations.

 

 

Oh, and I don't think this is a bad luck draft class. It's bad luck of Barkley is gone, but even if that happens, we are still in a prime position to trade down and snag a great player at a position of need (Ward/Vea/James). Hell, I'd be fine with Ward at #4 to be honest. I think he's a lockdown corner. Does he fit our scheme? No, but our scheme probably won't be our scheme for long if Hue Jackson doesn't win at least 7 of his games this year.

My top 5 players in the draft are:

1. Quinton Nelson OG (99)----highest grade I've given out ever.

2. Saquon Barkley RB (97)----highest grade I've given a RB ever (didn't formally evaluate AP, but he'd probably have been close or above this)

3. Denzel Ward CB (89)

4. Derwin James FS (88)

5. Vita Vea NT (87)

 

We are going to have access to probably all 5 of these players at pick #4 and could realistically trade with the Bills and have access to 1-2 of them at pick #12. I think we're in a great spot.

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10 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

Barkley.

 

Why do people love Chubb so much? Watch his tape. Average athletically. Wins with hustle and by playing against some bum OT's in the ACC. He is a very good run defender, but I want a stud pass rusher. He doesn't bend the edge or win with athleticism. He wins with his motor. I don't think NFL OT's are going to have problems mirroring him outside and I expect him to be solid, but never an impact pass rusher.

Then compare him to Barkley, who is a freaking superstar. He's an elite runner, pass catcher, and return man. With elite character. Bring Barkley to me.

1

He is at least above avg with athletic ability. Wins with hustle, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a high motor. The dude has an unreal motor. To say he wins with motor is a very lazy evaluation. Dude has some damn good technique. There is a reason he is such a good run defender because linemen rarely get him in a bad spot. Also, his one arm stab is pretty impressive, throws it perfectly to set up whatever he wants to do.  Sets up for any move to go outside or inside. To me, I would take the defensive linemen who have a high motor and great technique over pure athletic ability unless that pure athletic ability is like Garretts.

A lot of things you say are issues with Chubbs are some exact ways you could describe Joey Bosa when he was coming out. Bosa and Chubb had a very close sparq score. Chubb 130.2 and Bosa was 131.1. Bosa isnt winning with athletic ability and wasnt amazing at bending the corner. Bosa was freaking relentless and had some of the best hands and pure technique from a DE to come out in a long time. Hell I strongly believe in the past 5 years Bosa has the best technique and hands for a DE, to me Chubb is #2 on that list.

You watch some of the things Bosa does for the Charges and it similar things to what Chubb has done in college. not saying or comparing the two for tick for tack but just the style of play. You also look at the Chargers, they didnt need to take a DE #3 overall because they had a stud in Ingram already but they saw the potential in having two studs. Its what the Browns need to do with Garrett, give him a legit DE like Chubb

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15 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

My top 5 players in the draft are:

1. Quinton Nelson OG (99)----highest grade I've given out ever.

2. Saquon Barkley RB (97)----highest grade I've given a RB ever (didn't formally evaluate AP, but he'd probably have been close or above this)

3. Denzel Ward CB (89)

4. Derwin James FS (88)

5. Vita Vea NT (87)

An OG, RB and NT in the top 5?

And a CB and FS to boot?

Kinda makes the point that this draft class lacks luster.

 

 

 

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@buno67 I don't buy the Bosa comparison. Bosa's hand usage was unbelievable. And Bosa was a much more varied pass rusher. He had a nasty bull rush as well as an outside rip. I don't think the two are comparable. I think he's closer to being Shaq Lawson or Derrick Morgan or Derek Barnett than he is to being Bosa. Bosa was such a freak technician and kept his jersey clean of OT hands better than anyone I'd ever seen. And he's obviously not even close to Garrett as a pass rusher. I watched Bosa rip through triple teams and make plays. I see Chubb get single blocked in pass pro way more than I'd like to see. And it's tough to hold this against him, but some of the OT's he molested are atrocious. His Florida State tape is awesome, but they single blocked him all game with a piece of crap playing LT. And on 2 of his TFL's, he was literally unblocked for some reason...on non-zone read plays. I don't think he's nearly as good as he's made out to be.

If you watch Marcus Davenport, he overwhelms everyone with his bull rush. I love the fact that he has an elite pass rush move that nobody can handle. I'd rather go with him, who I'll admit is not as technically sound or energetic, over Chubb. We don't need a DE. It's kind of a luxury pick to be honest, which is why I'd rather go with the higher upside guy who is a better pass rusher (this 3rd DE will be used situationally in pass rush situations anyways).

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Just now, buno67 said:

or there is a reason he isnt a pro scout lol

Go look at most pro scouts top player lists, buddy. Let's see your top 5 so I can compare it to what pro scouts have.

I don't factor in positional importance into my rankings. I'd put a fullback in the top 5 if he graded out as the best FB of all-time. It doesn't mean I'd draft him in the first 2-3 rounds. I give out grades based on how they fill out the chart based on their position's important traits. I don't dock guys because they don't play QB/DE/CB/LT nor do I bump grades based on that. Grades are grades, but it doesn't mean I'm taking the top player on my board every time. I'd weigh positional importance, need, and the overall grade to make that determination.

My top 5 guys if we're factoring in positional importance and team need?

1. Sam Darnold

2. Baker Mayfield

3. Josh Rosen

4. Saquon Barkley

5. Denzel Ward

 

But I don't have any of the 3 QB's graded in the top 10 players in the class based purely on their grade. Darnold is my 1st guy and he appears at spot #12 on my big board.

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10 minutes ago, bruceb said:

An OG, RB and NT in the top 5?

And a CB and FS to boot?

Kinda makes the point that this draft class lacks luster.

CB's are one of the most important positions in football. Not sure why that'd be criticized.

 

This class lacks elite LT prospects and elite DE prospects. And the QB's are never going to grade out as highly as other positions because it's so hard to play that position. There are significant flaws with 99% of all QB prospects. I'm not bumping up their grades because they play QB. I grade everyone on a scale based on their position's necessary skills, not on what position they play in the grand scheme of things. If Sam Darnold gets an 86 grade from me, I'm not moving it up to a 95 because he plays QB. It doesn't mean I'd shy away from taking Darnold #1 because I wouldn't. But my top 5 players list is not the same as my big board that I'd use on draft day if I were a GM. I factor in positional importance in making the selection, not the grade.

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24 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

@buno67 I don't buy the Bosa comparison. Bosa's hand usage was unbelievable. And Bosa was a much more varied pass rusher. He had a nasty bull rush as well as an outside rip. I don't think the two are comparable. I think he's closer to being Shaq Lawson or Derrick Morgan or Derek Barnett than he is to being Bosa. Bosa was such a freak technician and kept his jersey clean of OT hands better than anyone I'd ever seen. And he's obviously not even close to Garrett as a pass rusher. I watched Bosa rip through triple teams and make plays. I see Chubb get single blocked in pass pro way more than I'd like to see. And it's tough to hold this against him, but some of the OT's he molested are atrocious. His Florida State tape is awesome, but they single blocked him all game with a piece of crap playing LT. And on 2 of his TFL's, he was literally unblocked for some reason...on non-zone read plays. I don't think he's nearly as good as he's made out to be.

If you watch Marcus Davenport, he overwhelms everyone with his bull rush. I love the fact that he has an elite pass rush move that nobody can handle. I'd rather go with him, who I'll admit is not as technically sound or energetic, over Chubb. We don't need a DE. It's kind of a luxury pick to be honest, which is why I'd rather go with the higher upside guy who is a better pass rusher (this 3rd DE will be used situationally in pass rush situations anyways).

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Yeah Chubb didnt play against the best tackles in the nation but vs the #1 tackle in the draft, Chubb won a majority of the battle between him and McGlinichy over the past two years. Also if you think the ACC tackles were garbage, what do you consider the tackles that Davenport played against. Bullrush might work great vs Conference USA tackles but not in the NFL. 

If Im drafting a DE in the 1st rd, he is going to be a starter. I view Chubb being better than Ogbah. I dont know why people think its kind of a luxury pick. The NFL game is all about the QBs, best way to counter that is getting guys who can get after the QB. 

See I dont get excited about Davenport, didnt really dominate the lower talent like he should of. Yeah his elite pass rush move only got him 8.5 sacks in a weak conference.

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59 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Yeah Chubb didnt play against the best tackles in the nation but vs the #1 tackle in the draft, Chubb won a majority of the battle between him and McGlinichy over the past two years.

McGlinchey isn't very good. I am not a fan of his and don't see him as a 1st round prospect...especially as someone that should be playing LT. He's an average RT prospect to me. I was disappointed by him all throughout his career, as he was supposed to be the next great OT.

59 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Also if you think the ACC tackles were garbage, what do you consider the tackles that Davenport played against. Bullrush might work great vs Conference USA tackles but not in the NFL. 

Fair argument, although Davenport didn't look like a C-USA player at the Senior Bowl. He played well in that game against D1 draft prospects. But I get your point here.

59 minutes ago, buno67 said:

If Im drafting a DE in the 1st rd, he is going to be a starter. I view Chubb being better than Ogbah. I dont know why people think its kind of a luxury pick. The NFL game is all about the QBs, best way to counter that is getting guys who can get after the QB. 

Because we'd be benching one of our best players for a minor upgrade. That's a luxury pick. Taking a player at a spot where you don't have a need when you have other needs. I don't think Chubb is better than Ogbah either. I think if he is better, it's not a discernible difference. You can counterargue that Barkley is also a luxury and I wouldn't disagree, but he's clearly better than the entrenched starters we have and would immediately be our most dynamic playmaker.

59 minutes ago, buno67 said:

See I dont get excited about Davenport, didnt really dominate the lower talent like he should of. Yeah his elite pass rush move only got him 8.5 sacks in a weak conference.

He did dominate lower level competition. You're stat scouting. I'd love to see how many pressures and quick throws he forced because I watched 3 of his game tapes and he was crushing the OT's back into the QB every snap. The QB had to get rid of the football quickly. There aren't many examples of QB's holding the football for more than 3-4 seconds against this team and it's because of Davenport's presence. He crushed dudes faces in. I'm not worried about sack numbers as long as he's being constantly disruptive, which he was.

 

 

 

I'm not totally against Chubb. He's more refined than Davenport is right now for sure. But if we're drafting someone to be our 3rd DE in pass rushing situations, I want it to be the guy with the higher upside and the better set of pass rush skills. Chubb strikes me as a solid 10 year pro. Davenport strikes me as someone that can take over a game and become a superstar pass rusher in time. Plus we could trade down slightly and get him instead of having to take Chubb at #4.

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Saw a tweet and decided to watch some more Barkley to verify if it was smoke or not.

Is anybody else concerned with Barkley that he doesnt run between the tackles nearly enough.

I know this is not every play, but if you just go watch a 7 min cutup of him on Youtube, 75% of his runs are screens, pitches and off-tackle runs. I know he is a athletic freak, but is anybody else a little worries he is not more of a between the tackles runner who can take a every-down pounding between the tackles? Mostly all of his highlights are him just being faster than everybody to the edge and getting outside. 

The highlights he does have up the middle, he hits a linebacker, then his instinct is to bounce it outside and outrun everybody. That can work in college, but him being able to bounce everything out for big gains is not working in the NFL. I just dont see the 'complete package' of RB with Barkley that a guy like Zeke was. He looks like a bigger version of the same runner Duke Johnson is and Im worried that he lacks physicality to be a consistent between the tackles guy

 

 

Either way, this is Chubb in a landslide.

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6 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

McGlinchey isn't very good. I am not a fan of his and don't see him as a 1st round prospect...especially as someone that should be playing LT. He's an average RT prospect to me. I was disappointed by him all throughout his career, as he was supposed to be the next great OT.

Fair argument, although Davenport didn't look like a C-USA player at the Senior Bowl. He played well in that game against D1 draft prospects. But I get your point here.

Because we'd be benching one of our best players for a minor upgrade. That's a luxury pick. Taking a player at a spot where you don't have a need when you have other needs. I don't think Chubb is better than Ogbah either. I think if he is better, it's not a discernible difference. You can counterargue that Barkley is also a luxury and I wouldn't disagree, but he's clearly better than the entrenched starters we have and would immediately be our most dynamic playmaker.

He did dominate lower level competition. You're stat scouting. I'd love to see how many pressures and quick throws he forced because I watched 3 of his game tapes and he was crushing the OT's back into the QB every snap. The QB had to get rid of the football quickly. There aren't many examples of QB's holding the football for more than 3-4 seconds against this team and it's because of Davenport's presence. He crushed dudes faces in. I'm not worried about sack numbers as long as he's being constantly disruptive, which he was.

 

 

 

I'm not totally against Chubb. He's more refined than Davenport is right now for sure. But if we're drafting someone to be our 3rd DE in pass rushing situations, I want it to be the guy with the higher upside and the better set of pass rush skills. Chubb strikes me as a solid 10 year pro. Davenport strikes me as someone that can take over a game and become a superstar pass rusher in time. Plus we could trade down slightly and get him instead of having to take Chubb at #4.

I can agree with the last part because haven’t watch nearly enough by him. I was mostly cherry picking the stat lol he did have an absurd amount of tackle for losses, so that shows he is an overall disruption on the defensive line. The same thing can be said about Chubb as well. 

To me I just can’t get excited about a DE if his best move is a bullrush. To me in the NFL you gotta have amazing speed and agility to hit that dip or the hands to keep a tackle off of you. I don’t see that in Davenport. 

If your telling me if a rookie is gonna come in and be better than the 3rd year guy, I’m taking that rookie because he should just get better as he gets NFL coaching. It might be a slightly upgrade at the position you think but it knocks Ogbah down to the first guy off the bench and that is a huge improvement. I would rather have him coming in than The other back up DEs. It then brings the versatility to the rotation and the entire DL cause than Greg Williams can get crazy with the way he can align them if he wants Chubb and Garrett inside or outside. Also improve the DL greatly impacts the coverage because with guys like Garrett Ogbah and Chubb in a pure pass rush package with say Obi would allow them to play 7 men in coverage because there would be no need to blitz because of the ability to pressure with just 4. 

Its a QB driven league. The browns can get the best QB prospect and the best player at making a QB uncomfortable. 

Also another attribute I love about Chubb is the dude plays like a prick. Something no one really plays like for the Browns. He will mess with you, he will lay into you, and just get after it. To me you watch that Clemson game, he messed with Kelly Bryant all game long if it was with the pressures and QB hits and just being a prick and messing with him. It lead to Kelly having one of his worse games of the year. 

Idk I feel like Chubb and Garrett can be a ying and yang. They compliment one another pretty darn well

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