Lamar Jackson at 16

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

If the coaching staff is a problem I think the better solution than not drafting him would be to get a new coaching staff 

But we have Marty who Vick was an MVP contender with. Roman who Kaepernick dominated with for a couple years. So I don’t see why this should because a problem 

I have faith in Roman, but less in Marty and even less in Harbaugh. Remember, Harbaugh is the guy who brought Trestman here to bring our run game back.

I do agree with you that perhaps Jackson is the guy who can do the most on his own without a competent coaching staff, but it still makes me nervous taking a QB who needs coaching and then potentially asking him to fit himself into an existing system.

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, DontTazeMeBro said:

If the coaching staff is a problem I think the better solution than not drafting him would be to get a new coaching staff 

But we have Marty who Vick was an MVP contender with. Roman who Kaepernick dominated with for a couple years. So I don’t see why this should because a problem 

Agreed. Jackson is actually very much poised in the pocket and can excel in a pocket based attack with a few wrinkles. It’ll also better protect him. But both Marty and Roman can put together the best plan on how to create a comfortable median between allowing him to utilize his athleticism while still protecting him.

I’m not too concerned. We saw a less creative coaching staff use a few RPOs for  Tyrod Taylor in preseason games. Granted, we could’ve utilized it more, but this staff between Mornhinweg and Roman should be able to figure it out. We also FINALLY have a quarterback coach and that should do wonders for Lamar Jackson’s mechanical development (and Flacco’s).

[DreamKid]

If we do pick him, I won't be mad.

We have no shot at Darnold or Allen, and I won't fret over missing out on Mayfield or Rosen. Jackson isn't a natural thrower of the football but he will carry that elite running ability for at least 5 years so why not get him on a rookie contract. He'll never be a great natural thrower but he could be a way better kaepernik in terms of both touch and obviously running ability. Some may look at this as a downside but I think it raises his floor and ensures that our offense will always have a viable aspect in terms of productivity. How many pure pocket QBs can't get the passing game going and the whole offense falls apart? We'll know that Jackson can always rip off 10-15 yard runs and get the team in field goal range.

Also this way we don't have to give up hordes of picks to move up in the coming years with a QB in the chamber. I still think we can get something out of Flacco, but I'm not comfortable with giving the same level of faith anymore. Even as he got healthy last year, errant throws were still all too common. He deserves to be pushed and motivated to keep his spot, and the very least cornered into taking on a smaller contract if he wants to stay with us.

Adding a high potential QB to your team is never a bad idea when yours is old and stacking question marks. I'm not looking forward to the Jackson chants the second Flacco misses a throw, but what are you going to do. Flacco has dealt with that stuff before and never been fazed.

I don't think it's a likely pick in terms of availability with Miami and Arizona ahead of us, and all the other teams that could trade into the top 15 but we'll see.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, DreamKid said:

If we do pick him, I won't be mad.

We have no shot at Darnold or Allen, and I won't fret over missing out on Mayfield or Rosen. Jackson isn't a natural thrower of the football but he will carry that elite running ability for at least 5 years so why not get him on a rookie contract. He'll never be a great natural thrower but he could be a way better kaepernik in terms of both touch and obviously running ability. Some may look at this as a downside but I think it raises his floor and ensures that our offense will always have a viable aspect in terms of productivity. How many pure pocket QBs can't get the passing game going and the whole offense falls apart? We'll know that Jackson can always rip off 10-15 yard runs and get the team in field goal range.

Also this way we don't have to give up hordes of picks to move up in the coming years with a QB in the chamber. I still think we can get something out of Flacco, but I'm not comfortable with giving the same level of faith anymore. Even as he got healthy last year, errant throws were still all too common. He deserves to be pushed and motivated to keep his spot, and the very least cornered into taking on a smaller contract if he wants to stay with us.

Adding a high potential QB to your team is never a bad idea when yours is old and stacking question marks. I'm not looking forward to the Jackson chants the second Flacco misses a throw, but what are you going to do. Flacco has dealt with that stuff before and never been fazed.

I don't think it's a likely pick in terms of availability with Miami and Arizona ahead of us, and all the other teams that could trade into the top 15 but we'll see.

I don’t understand why you would like Allen. He’s a worse version of Joe Flacco. His pocket presence is terrible. Worse than anything Flacco has displayed. He also has all of the same weaknesses that Flacco had in terms of accuracy (worse), not making anticipation throws, etc. At least with Josh Rosen, if you give him a great OL he’s going to be arguably the best passing weapon this draft has to offer.

About Jackson, I agree about his impact, if we select him I’m not as concerned about needing a more featured back because Jackson’s value in the run game would cause more defensive patience where they have to fear his takeoff ability. Even as he slows down though, at his worst he would still be as fast as Tyrod Taylor and Russell Wilson are now. Where I disagree is that he can’t work to improve his throwing mechanics. We saw Jimmy Garoppolo do it to increase his arm strength, same with Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady. Each strengthened their arms after their collegiate career. Backing up Flacco for a couple seasons would provide the time for Jackson to strengthen his mechanics under James Urban, who did wonders as a receivers coach.

[DreamKid]

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I don’t understand why you would like Allen. He’s a worse version of Joe Flacco. His pocket presence is terrible. Worse than anything Flacco has displayed. He also has all of the same weaknesses that Flacco had in terms of accuracy (worse), not making anticipation throws, etc. At least with Josh Rosen, if you give him a great OL he’s going to be arguably the best passing weapon this draft has to offer.

About Jackson, I agree about his impact, if we select him I’m not as concerned about needing a more featured back because Jackson’s value in the run game would cause more defensive patience where they have to fear his takeoff ability. Even as he slows down though, at his worst he would still be as fast as Tyrod Taylor and Russell Wilson are now. Where I disagree is that he can’t work to improve his throwing mechanics. We saw Jimmy Garoppolo do it to increase his arm strength, same with Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady. Each strengthened their arms after their collegiate career. Backing up Flacco for a couple seasons would provide the time for Jackson to strengthen his mechanics under James Urban, who did wonders as a receivers coach.

I'm a believer in Allen, I've followed him for a couple years now and his issues just don't scare me the way they do some. That comp. % will always be a red flag but his overall talent will develop into a winning superstar QB, at least imo. Rosen's dearth of elite traits leave me wholly uninterested in him as a prospect. He doesn't have a top tier mind, arm, mobility, or intangibles. I'll happily let him be some other team's "safe" pick.

I think Jackson will always be faster than Tyrod and Wilson, and beyond speed he has the moves. He pulls off jukes I've just never seen another runner perform, those skills will keep his legs more valuable than a pure straight line mobile QB. I never said he couldn't improve his mechanics, just that he'll never be a natural thrower of the football. It isn't by mistake that he isn't being considered for the top 5 picks. He lacks that fluidity or ease of motion that some guys just have when they throw the football. Newton, Mcnabb, Vick, players of similar ilk to Jackson but all were gifted with that roll and Lamar wasn't, he'd go much higher if he was. Getting a QB at 16 means your forfeiting something and I'm okay with that. I agree he can improve his mechanics but he doesn't have the foundation to take steps forward like the players you listed did.

[RavensfanRD]

If the Ravens draft Lamar Jackson I will cry for two reasons:

1. This means the Flacco era is over and we know he's the Greatest QB ever. I actually might stop watching after the pick.

2. Excited to have another beastly QB ready to slay the AFCN

I'd rather us take a "SHO NUFF" WR there, but I wouldn't be too mad at the pick. I'm just hoping Flacco can drag his nuts one more time and give us a godlike playoff run for his swan song.

[berlin calling]

sorry RD but Flacco is too busy assembling his very own soccer team, 5 and counting, giving Rivers a run for his money.

[diamondbull424]

10 hours ago, DreamKid said:

I'm a believer in Allen, I've followed him for a couple years now and his issues just don't scare me the way they do some. That comp. % will always be a red flag but his overall talent will develop into a winning superstar QB, at least imo. Rosen's dearth of elite traits leave me wholly uninterested in him as a prospect. He doesn't have a top tier mind, arm, mobility, or intangibles. I'll happily let him be some other team's "safe" pick.

I think Jackson will always be faster than Tyrod and Wilson, and beyond speed he has the moves. He pulls off jukes I've just never seen another runner perform, those skills will keep his legs more valuable than a pure straight line mobile QB. I never said he couldn't improve his mechanics, just that he'll never be a natural thrower of the football. It isn't by mistake that he isn't being considered for the top 5 picks. He lacks that fluidity or ease of motion that some guys just have when they throw the football. Newton, Mcnabb, Vick, players of similar ilk to Jackson but all were gifted with that roll and Lamar wasn't, he'd go much higher if he was. Getting a QB at 16 means your forfeiting something and I'm okay with that. I agree he can improve his mechanics but he doesn't have the foundation to take steps forward like the players you listed did.

1. True. I guess my biggest issue with Allen isn’t his completion percentage, but his pocket poise. Flacco didn’t look as uncomfortable as Allen in that respect coming out and pocket poise just seems to be similar to being a natural thrower, something you can’t seem to teach but so much. If a guy is afraid, that doesn’t seem to change much over time. Many times it only gets worse. Flacco after his injur hasn’t looked nearly as comfortable as before. As an observation it just appears as though a lot of the failed quarterbacks seemed to have pocket poise concerns coming out. I honestly think it’s right there with accuracy as the most important skill for a QB to have. From what I’ve seen Allen struggles at both and that’s not a good combo.

2. I’m confused by the language. Are you referring to arm strength or some specific type of throwing mechanic in this statement? I’m admittedly not the best QB analyzer, so I apologize if that’s a stupid question.

3. To keep this about Jackson though, I just see a situation where Allen has slightly better accuracy in a clean pocket than does Jackson, but Jackson just looks much better in a broken pocket than Allen. I don’t see arm strength as being that big of a difference either because, Jackson looks better at anticipating throwing lanes/windows than Allen and that makes up for the sheer power that Allen can generate.

I do believe that both should sit for at least a year to correct their issues, but I just see less flaws for Jackson to fix than for Allen. I see it as follows:

Lamar Jackson fixes:

1. Arm strength (he needs to throw with his legs to increase his passing strength and not his arm).

2. Pass accuracy- This would also be corrected with throwing with his legs. Similar to shooting  with your legs when doing a basketball free throw technique.

VS

Josh Allen fixes:

1. His accuracy (physical).

2. His pocket poise (mental)

3. Lack of anticapory passes (mental/preparation)

Jackson has problems that can be corrected with great practice, Allen as well, but he has more problems and thus you can’t simply dial in on teaching him.

[RavensfanRD]

6 hours ago, berlin calling said:

sorry RD but Flacco is too busy assembling his very own soccer team, 5 and counting, giving Rivers a run for his money.

Yeah, his pull out game weak as hell, lol!

But I believe he did say he always wanted a big family. He definitely got that now that's for sure!

But like I said, I hope his final year in Baltimore is a beastly one. If Jackson is the pick at 16, I won't be mad. I think he'll be a good QB and I'm not a huge fan of "Duel-threat" QB's outside of Rodgers. I guess because the success rate I don't think is too high. But we'll see!

[DreamKid]

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

2. I’m confused by the language. Are you referring to arm strength or some specific type of throwing mechanic in this statement? I’m admittedly not the best QB analyzer, so I apologize if that’s a stupid question.

I'm referring to a specific fluidity of mechanics, regardless of delivery, footwork, etc. 

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

3. To keep this about Jackson though, I just see a situation where Allen has slightly better accuracy in a clean pocket than does Jackson, but Jackson just looks much better in a broken pocket than Allen. I don’t see arm strength as being that big of a difference either because, Jackson looks better at anticipating throwing lanes/windows than Allen and that makes up for the sheer power that Allen can generate.

We're entering subjective territory now, but the bottom line anyone can agree on is you'd want to sit either one of them and not have them start immediately. 

 

[diamondbull424]

6 hours ago, RavensfanRD said:

Yeah, his pull out game weak as hell, lol!

But I believe he did say he always wanted a big family. He definitely got that now that's for sure!

But like I said, I hope his final year in Baltimore is a beastly one. If Jackson is the pick at 16, I won't be mad. I think he'll be a good QB and I'm not a huge fan of "Duel-threat" QB's outside of Rodgers. I guess because the success rate I don't think is too high. But we'll see!

I don’t know about this. I feel like this is a made up storyline in the media that has never been backed. We always talk about which Dual threat quarterbacks didn’t work, but then forget that quarterbacks in general are a crapshoot.

For instance, I will define “success” as a quarterback as leading his team to the playoffs, accumulating a total of at least 3500 yards and 25 touchdowns in a season, as well as at least 3 pro bowls.

Also I will define a “dual threat QB” as someone who accumulated over 1000 rushing yards in a college career (proving he was a legit threat to run). I’ll define a pocket passer as someone with over 30 passing touchdowns in a college season (as only someone spending a lot of time in the pocket likely hits this threshold). If someone hits both thresholds then I will consider them a dual threat. Now, that all said, taking a look at just first round quarterbacks since 1998, this is what the list would look like:

Pocket Passer QBs (30+ PTDs/season)= 7/20

1. Peyton Manning- success

2. Ryan Leaf- fail

3. Tim Couch- fail

4. Akili Smith- fail

5. Chad Pennington- fail

6. David Carr- fail

7. Carson Palmer- success

8. Byron Leftwich- fail

9. Rex Grossman- fail

10. Eli Manning- success

11. Philip Rivers- success

12. Ben Roethlisberger- success

13. J.P. Losman- fail

14. Matt Leinart- fail

15. Brady Quinn- fail

16. Matt Ryan- success

17. Mark Sanchez- fail

18. Sam Bradford- fail

19. Andrew Luck- success

20. Brandon Weeden- fail

21. Teddy Bridgewater- n/a (1x probowl)

22. Jameis Winston- n/a (1x probowl)

23. Jared Goff- n/a (1x probowl)

24. Mitch Trubisky- n/a

25. Patrick Mahomes- n/a

 

Dual Threat QBs (1000 RYDs career) = 5/10

1. Donovan McNabb- success

2. Daunte Culpepper- success

3. Mike Vick- success

4. Alex Smith- success

5. Vince Young- fail (still got 2x probowls)

6. Tim Tebow- fail

7. Cam Newton- success

8. Jake Locker- fail

9. Robert Griffin III- failing (1x probowl)

10. Johnny Manziel- fail

11. Marcus Mariota- n/a

12. Carson Wentz- n/a (1x probowl)

13. Deshaun Watson- n/a

 

Other (Neither) = 1/15

1. Cade McNown- fail

2. Joey Harrington- fail

3. Patrick Ramsay- fail

4. Kyle Boller- fail

5. Aaron Rodgers- success (sat 3 years)

6. Jason Campbell- fail

7. Jay Cutler- fail

8. JaMarcus Russell- fail

9. Joe Flacco- fail

10. Matthew Stafford- failing (1x probowl)

11. Josh Freeman- fail

12. Ryan Tannehill- fail

13. EJ Manuel- fail

14. Blake Bortles- n/a, failing

15. Paxton Lynch- fail

 

[diamondbull424]

Based off of that info and with those high success thresholds, I would conclude that dual threat QBs are the most successful group of players.

Though most people continue to push the narrative that they are least likely to succeed in the NFL when the reality shows that they generally have a high level of success. They also tend to be very impactful in their QB record from the jump regardless of if they’re playing for a bad team. And lastly they seem to at the very least separate themselves to become pro bowl players at least once in their career more often than not.

Based off of this, I would conclude that the chances of Lamar Jackson succeeding is higher than any other quarterback in this draft class not named Baker Mayfield. Just based off of the success rates alone. Then watching the tape and looking at his collegiate durability and I just see a player that given time to develop should truly be a force.

[drd23]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

Based off of that info and with those high success thresholds, I would conclude that dual threat QBs are the most successful group of players.

That probably has something to do with the fact that they get scrutinised more in college and during the draft process, so the quality prospects are better separated from the rest than those that fill the prototypical pocket QB mold

[diamondbull424]

5 minutes ago, drd23 said:

That probably has something to do with the fact that they get scrutinised more in college and during the draft process, so the quality prospects are better separated from the rest than those that fill the prototypical pocket QB mold

Agreed. They do get more scrutinized. A player like Josh Allen for instance, I feel gets much more of a free pass than dual threat options who utterly dominated the collegiate level as passers and runners of the football. We saw this with Deshaun Watson and are again seeing it with both Lamar Jackson and Baker Mayfield.

For example, Josh Rosen who has obvious durability issues to this point, hasn’t had to answer for his durability concerns as much as the “durability concerns” that are being attributed to Lamar Jackson, even though he’s never missed a college game to injury. He’s also much better at protecting himself from big hits than Mike Vick and RG3, which is probably a big part of that.

I think the unfair scrutiny does mean the dual threat options that actually go in the first round are better vetted prospects than other QBs, but it’s just unfortunate that they are so heavily scrutinized for what they may or may not provide vs the obvious advantages that they do provide.

[Ras]

I'd be prefectly fine drafting Lamar at 16. I'd be happiest if we did so after we've added another receiver eithe #1r via Trade or free agency (unlikely).

He looks like a better passer than people give him credit for and his stats are ridiculous. Yea he as accuracy issues but as long as you think he'll put in the work to get better then go for it. Only worry is like most mobile qbs, will he protect himself. I'm holding my breath anytime he takes off and runs.