The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

[SemperFeist]

3 hours ago, Kparty15 said:

It looks like the Chargers starting OGs will be Dan Feeney and Trai Turner.  I wonder if they would be interested in trading Forrest Lamp.  He’s a perfect scheme fit athletically, but has had some bad luck with injuries.

He’s more valuable to the Chargers as a backup than anything I’d be willing to give up. 

Free agency next year is a different story, however. 

[Cearbhall]

On 4/30/2020 at 10:32 AM, PrplChilPill said:

I get that part, I don't get the part where anyone thinks this is a good idea......but, then, I've pretty much not agreed with Spielman's approach to the OL ever, so no surprise. I hope to be very wrong.

Mr @PrplChilPill Your track record makes it clear as day that you have a better handle on the Vikings offensive line situation than almost anyone on this forum. I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts. Specifically, I would be interested in any ideas you have that could lead to the Vikings fixing the longstanding problem.

[swede700]

24 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Mr @PrplChilPill Your track record makes it clear as day that you have a better handle on the Vikings offensive line situation than almost anyone on this forum. I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts. Specifically, I would be interested in any ideas you have that could lead to the Vikings fixing the longstanding problem.

PCP has been complaining about the offensive line here since Childress first tried to run the ZBS with power blocking offensive linemen way back in '06 (back with his old username).  I remember those days fondly.      

[Cearbhall]

1 hour ago, swede700 said:

PCP has been complaining about the offensive line here since Childress first tried to run the ZBS with power blocking offensive linemen way back in '06 (back with his old username).  I remember those days fondly.      

Has the guy ever been wrong? Reading back old posts everything he says seems to prove out. Most of the rest of us look to be wrong more often than not. I want to hear more from him and hope he hasn't left shaking his head in frustration at what would likely appear to him as hopeless cases in a futile effort to share his insight.

[swede700]

10 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Has the guy ever been wrong? Reading back old posts everything he says seems to prove out. Most of the rest of us look to be wrong more often than not. I want to hear more from him and hope he hasn't left shaking his head in frustration at what would likely appear to him as hopeless cases in a futile effort to share his insight.

In retrospect, I often agreed with him to a certain extent, but I chose to try and remain hopeful that it would work out.  Sort of like I still do regarding it...if they decide to cut Reiff and move O'Neill over to the left, so be it.  I'll be hopeful that it'll work out...I just don't believe it's the wisest move to make at this point...far too often on this team, I've seen them swapping guys left and right and hoping it works and then it doesn't...with Fusco being the most notable in recent history.  

[Cearbhall]

2 minutes ago, swede700 said:

In retrospect, I often agreed with him to a certain extent, but I chose to try and remain hopeful that it would work out.  Sort of like I still do regarding it...if they decide to cut Reiff and move O'Neill over to the left, so be it.  I'll be hopeful that it'll work out...I just don't believe it's the wisest move to make at this point...far too often on this team, I've seen them swapping guys left and right and hoping it works and then it doesn't...with Fusco being the most notable in recent history.  

Agreed. More recently moving guys around has been a terrible failure with Pat Elflein. There is a long line of the team doing this with poor results. TJ Clemmings was probably never going to be any good anyway but he would have has a better shot if he was concentrating on one side. Remmers was jerked around from RT to LT to G (a portion of that jerking was the Titans). Mike Harris was move from RT to G; his ultimate undoing was unrelated but it is another example of the team not being able to settle on what position a player should be at and sticking to it. Charlie Johnson went from LT to G. Joe Berger (C/G) provided decent play but also didn't get to settle in the same place for too long.

If a player fails at the position that you felt he was best suited to play maybe it is best to let him have a fresh start with another team instead of hoping moving him somewhere else will work any better for you.

I too will be hoping things work out for O'Neill at LT if they move him there but I'll be questioning the decision heavily if it doesn't work out. The team finally had a cornerstone at one of the tackle positions. Why risk giving that up? The team may end up with inconsistency on both sides, which is a very hard thing to deal with via scheme.

[Krauser]

3 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

Agreed. More recently moving guys around has been a terrible failure with Pat Elflein. There is a long line of the team doing this with poor results. TJ Clemmings was probably never going to be any good anyway but he would have has a better shot if he was concentrating on one side. Remmers was jerked around from RT to LT to G (a portion of that jerking was the Titans). Mike Harris was move from RT to G; his ultimate undoing was unrelated but it is another example of the team not being able to settle on what position a player should be at and sticking to it. Charlie Johnson went from LT to G. Joe Berger (C/G) provided decent play but also didn't get to settle in the same place for too long.

If a player fails at the position that you felt he was best suited to play maybe it is best to let him have a fresh start with another team instead of hoping moving him somewhere else will work any better for you.

I too will be hoping things work out for O'Neill at LT if they move him there but I'll be questioning the decision heavily if it doesn't work out. The team finally had a cornerstone at one of the tackle positions. Why risk giving that up? The team may end up with inconsistency on both sides, which is a very hard thing to deal with via scheme.

That's just not true. All kinds of successful OL have played multiple positions in their careers, and/or switched positions moving from college to the NFL.

Basically every one of the 2018 IOL class that the Vikings missed out on has either switched positions from college (Connor Williams LT -> LG) or played multiple positions (Ragnow and Daniels at both C and G) already, after just 2 years. The Packers guards in the 2010s have been converted tackles, until Jenkins, who's a converted center. Sitton and Lang swapped sides mid-career. Lane Johnson was a college LT. Tyron Smith played RT as a rookie. Kyle Long spent a year at tackle. Etc. 

The problem with the Vikings OL isn't the position changes, it's that too many of the players haven't been good enough.

Fusco was good until his injury. When he came back at LG and struggled, that was blamed on switching sides. But he was no better when he switched back to RG, so the problem wasn't his position.

Elflein was decent as a rookie. He was terrible in his 2nd year coming back from injury. He then improved last year (though still not good) despite switching positions. We've yet to see if he's any better or worse on the right side.

Clemmings was a bust regardless of which side he played on, though the carousel in 2016 did him no favors.

Meanwhile Charlie Johnson was better at LG than LT, Mike Harris was much better at RG than RT and Joe Berger was good at whatever IOL position they put him in.

I don't think they should cut Reiff if they can afford to keep him, but there's no reason to be especially afraid that moving O'Neill to the left side (where he played 2 years in college) is going to somehow ruin his development as a player. Udoh is very promising and might deserve a chance to start. And if they can develop Cleveland as a guard, they would be in good shape with the OL going forward.

[Cearbhall]

4 minutes ago, Krauser said:

That's just not true.

What's not true? Everything in that post I wrote that you quoted?

The statement I was agreeing with was this: "I've seen them swapping guys left and right and hoping it works and then it doesn't". I provided additional examples supporting that statement. Are you saying none of those are true? Are the position changes I noted wrong? Is at least a single one of them false? Is it not true that it didn't work out?

Reading back what I wrote, it looks to be accurate. I was very fair in noting where some of those players struggles were probably not related to the position change. Starting off your response to my post by saying that it isn't true feels very argumentative all while I am left unsure what exactly you are disagreeing with. You then bring up examples that have no relevance to the discussion of seeing the Vikings swapping guys around and it not working out. I am not sure what you are talking about here.

The one thing that you said that makes sense to me is that the players the Vikings have had have not been good enough. I have argued that for year and years predating my time ever posting on this board. I agree with that. I do not thinking moving guys around is helping that. The team should have stopped moving Elflein around and hoping he would become a good starter before they started him at G last year. He simply isn't good enough and trying to hide from that by moving him and hoping is not working out for the Vikings.

[Krauser]

25 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

What's not true? Everything in that post I wrote that you quoted?

The idea that moving players to different positions has anything much to do with the success or failure of the Vikings OL as a whole. 

Remmers is about the only example of a pretty good player who was worse when he changed positions, and better once he went back to his old position. For that one example against, there are at least a few who did better after positional changes, like Harris and Johnson and Berger. Other examples of drop-offs or failed development have more to do with injury (Fusco) or general lack of quality (Clemmings, probably Elflein after this year). 

26 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

You then bring up examples that have no relevance to the discussion of seeing the Vikings swapping guys around and it not working out. I am not sure what you are talking about here.

It does have relevance to the question of whether it's OK to move O'Neill to LT. He's not being moved because he struggled at RT. There's no reason to think he can't play well on the left side. 

31 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

The team should have stopped moving Elflein around and hoping he would become a good starter before they started him at G last year. He simply isn't good enough and trying to hide from that by moving him and hoping is not working out for the Vikings.

It wasn't stupid for them to expect their 3rd round 2017 draft pick, who'd started 2 full seasons at C in the NFL, to be a starting LG last year. His 2018 season was terrible in large part due to the injury. He was good enough to start in 2017. Why would they have benched him heading into 2019, after he finally had a healthy offseason?

It's fairly stupid to expect Elflein to still be a starter this year but the problem if he fails won't be that he's switching positions. 

[Cearbhall]

2 minutes ago, Krauser said:

The idea that moving players to different positions has anything much to do with the success or failure of the Vikings OL as a whole.

Oh good. What I said wasn't wrong. You were wrong to say that I was wrong because you were making up things that I did not say. I was not talking about it having much to do with the success or failure of their line. The statement I was agreeing with was this: "I've seen them swapping guys left and right and hoping it works and then it doesn't". I stand by what I wrote. We have indeed seen them swapping guys. Yes we have. Yes that is right. It has not worked out. No, it has not. Again, Swede and I were right. I stand by everything that I wrote.

You are talking about something else, the failure of the line is owing to the team not having good enough player. I do not disagree with that. However, that being true does not make what I wrote wrong. The two things are certainly not mutually exclusive. I disagree with you saying that what I wrote was wrong. It was not. I was not writing about what you are talking about. It never was intended to be about that. You made that up. I even specified exactly what I was agreeing with and you persisted in the follow-up in trying to cram words into my mouth that were never there. I will not let you do that to me with me silently letting it go.

After reading your explanation, I stand by what I said. I concede no ground and I ask you to retract your statement that I was wrong.

13 minutes ago, Krauser said:

It wasn't stupid for them to expect their 3rd round 2017 draft pick, who'd started 2 full seasons at C in the NFL, to be a starting LG last year. His 2018 season was terrible in large part due to the injury. He was good enough to start in 2017. Why would they have benched him heading into 2019, after he finally had a healthy offseason?

History is on my side on this one. It didn't work out. My argument isn't entirely hindsight either. I was complaining about them counting on Elflein at G before last season started. Why would they have benched him heading into 2019? I don't know. Why did they use their first round pick on a center? The answer to that is why they benched him and changed his position. Like anyone else, he should have started at the bottom of the depth chart and worked his way up from there. They didn't do that. They handed him the job and gave him no real competition for it. That was a huge mistake and it predictably did not work out in their favor. It could have worked out but it did not. As I said before last season, they should not have been counting on that working out.

Elflein's struggles at center related to power. He was pretty good in the screen game but he simply didn't have enough power. There is not a reasonable argument for how moving from center to guard was going to solve that problem. If that problem was solved they could have left him at center. It is predictable that the new position was going to make it worse. Power is more important at guard than center. Predictably, it didn't work out. History shows us exactly why they shouldn't have been counting on Elflein to start at guard. 

[Krauser]

Jesus, man. It’s a discussion, no need to get yourself tied in a knot. Just make your case and leave it at that. 

A common thread for fans complaining about the Vikings OL is that positional changes have been a reason for their struggles. I think that confuses cause with effect. Several of those changes have been for the better, and of those that didn’t work out, the position change was probably not the main problem (Remmers at RG is an exception, not the rule). 

There’s no particular reason to be upset about O’Neill switching sides beyond the fact that it means they’ll either be starting career swing backup Rashod Hill or promising but unproven project Oli Udoh. Losing Reiff is bad because Reiff is one of the better players on a mediocre to poor OL, not because O’Neill has to switch sides.

Similarly, if and when Dozier is terrible as a starting LG, the problem will be that Dozier is a decent backup OL who has no business starting in the NFL, not that Dozier mostly has played RG in his career but will now have to switch to the left side. 

... 

The idea that having Elflein starting at LG in 2019 was “a huge mistake” shows how little you understand how teams handle their rosters. Elflein had 27 games of starting experience in 2 years in the NFL, including a pretty good rookie season and a poor 2nd year where he was limited physically in recovering from injury. How was he going to start “at the bottom of the depth chart” — behind Aviante Collins, or Dakota Dozier, or a 3rd round rookie? Or would you have expected the team to bring in a long-term solution in free agency, and relegate their rookie contract veteran starter to the bench unless he outplayed a premium UFA, or someone got hurt? 

Elflein didn’t struggle with power in his rookie season, or last year, just in the 2nd year when he was out of shape. His problem last year was with hand usage and balance in pass protection. His work vs power was actually very good. He had one of the best positive run blocking grades in the league (2nd only to Quenton Nelson). He might still be an above average starting guard if the lightbulb ever goes on for him in pass blocking. 
 

[dc_vikingfan]

I'm actually a fan to cutting Reiff. However, I hate the timing of it and leery of cutting him right now. O'Neil is going to get paid and pre draft there always was talk of him being a LT. Udoh showed a lot of promise last year. My hope is Cleveland takes over LG mid season similar to O'Neil did in his rookie season. However, less than 2 weeks before week 1 and flipping OLine especially against GB has disaster written on it. Reiff future here is short and potential bookends of O'Neil/Udoh could be great.    

[CriminalMind]

For all we know BO could have asked for an opportunity, if it's presented, to play LT. He is obviously a cornerstone at RT, but he knows that LT make more and is generally the more important side.

I have no problems with giving him the reps in practice, and seeing how it goes. 

I agree that overall OL talent level was handicapping us (last 5 years), more so than decisions to switch OL positions (which happened when the talent failed)

[Cearbhall]

44 minutes ago, CriminalMind said:

I agree that overall OL talent level was handicapping us (last 5 years), more so than decisions to switch OL positions (which happened when the talent failed)

For sure. Switching positions instead prolonged the process as it kept the players of little talent starting for longer than they should have been starting. Many Kool-Aid drinking fans were satisfied with the arrangements. Heck, it worked out for Rick Spielman; he got an extension. For those of us that see OL as vital to any long success it* has been a nightmare.

* This is a plural it referring to the OL talent level, the position switching to justify delaying a real solution to that, and Rick Spielman being GM

[Cearbhall]

7 hours ago, Krauser said:

The idea that having Elflein starting at LG in 2019 was “a huge mistake” shows how little you understand how teams handle their rosters.

No, but this statement shines your ignorance bright. We see other teams demote bad starters regularly. It is even not that uncommon for teams to cut bad starters from the previous year. It happens every single year. If you think anything else, you know amazingly little about how teams handle their rosters. I do appreciate how you can bring PFFs numbers to the table as their insight, while severely flawed on its own, is one perspective that is good to have. No matter what PFF tells you, Pat Elflein was getting pushed backwards often. The team should not have been counting on him to start at guard last year. The better way to handle the roster would have been to bring in a starter and let Pat Elflein compete behind that guy.