The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

[SteelKing728]

Maybe if you don't have a top half of the league QB, your still looking for a QB. I don't agree with the top 10 remark though.

Ben Roethlisberger wasn't a top 10 QB his second season, and neither was Russell Wilson. Eli has had a few nice seasons, but isn't top 10. Flacco was never a top 10 QB.

and that's just recent examples!

[Kparty15]

On 8/22/2017 at 2:04 PM, JDBrocks said:

It would be even better if Isidora pans out, and they could get McGlinchey.

 

McGlinchey-Easton-Elflein-Isidora-Reiff

That would be awesome if we could get McGlinchey, but I'm expecting the Vikings to be too good this year to be in range to draft him.  Of course we have scene some pretty great prospects fall to us in the past few years so anything is possible.

I think that Quenton Nelson, who people are saying could be the next Logan Mankins, is definitely an option for us at the bottom of the 1st though.  I also really like Billy Price and think he could be there for us in the 3rd round similar to Pat Elflein.  I think Price will at least be as good as his fellow buckeye Jack Mewhort, but maybe even better.

If we aren't able to get McGlinchey then I wouldn't be upset with Trey Adams and Orlando Brown.  They could be a some decent huge bookend OTs for us.  Adams has a ton of potential at LT, but I could see him sitting behind Reiff for a year or two.  I think Brown could step in from day one at RT and have a Phil Loadholt type of impact.

[CriminalMind]

50 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said:

Maybe if you don't have a top half of the league QB, your still looking for a QB. I don't agree with the top 10 remark though.

Ben Roethlisberger wasn't a top 10 QB his second season, and neither was Russell Wilson. Eli has had a few nice seasons, but isn't top 10. Flacco was never a top 10 QB.

and that's just recent examples!

Whether its top 10 or top 16  metric for your QB, the fact remains that both Teddy and Sam, still haven't cross into the top 16 QB. And likely won't for this coming year.

I feel to win a SB in todays NFL without a top QB, practically means you need to be at/close to top 5 is all other important areas (overall defense, special teams, OL, run game, and game management/plan) ... and all these areas need to show up consistently in each playoff game.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by CriminalMind

[Kparty15]

1 hour ago, CriminalMind said:

Whether its top 10 or top 16  metric for your QB, the fact remains that both Teddy and Sam, still haven't cross into the top 16 QB. And likely won't for this coming year.

I feel to win a SB in todays NFL without a top QB, practically means you need to be at/close to top 5 is all other important areas (overall defense, special teams, OL, run game, and game management/plan) ... and all these areas need to show up consistently in each playoff game.

 

Idk about all of that.  I mean to an extent that can be true or a good rule of thumb, but I don't think that it is impossible to win a super bowl if you don't fall into that criteria.  While neither Teddy nor Sam have been top tier players at their position I do think that both guys are more than talented enough to win a Super Bowl.

In our playoff game a few years ago I think that Bridgewater looked like a better QB than Russell Wilson did.  I think that it is arguable that Bradford is as good of a QB as Matt Ryan is.  If Bradford was throwing to Julio Jones I think he would have similar numbers.  I definitely think that we are a Super Bowl contender this year.

[Magnus-Viktor]

20 hours ago, Kparty15 said:

Just about every example you were looking at things as a worst case scenario.  I mean what if Dalvin Cook breaks his neck and his career is over next year.  Then RB will be a high priority, but you can't plan for that stuff.  Our team has already taken steps to extend Barr next offseason and all signs point to him wanting to stay with the team.  Even when Barr was playing injured he was still an above average LB.  You can't plan for injuries to Barr, Bradford, or Bridgewater.  Those are just situations that you have to deal with as they come up, but you can't really plan your draft around that.  You can plan and get an idea of which players you are going to be able to retain.  If you have a problem with Barr's injuries you can work language regarding that into his contract extension or maybe offer him less guaranteed money.

My main point was that many of the OL veterans that we currently have on our roster are inadequate and need to be replaced making it a high priority.  You shouldn't draft replacements for players that were very recently highly drafted or have been steadily improving every year.  You don't just give up on developmental players that are showing promise.

OL will almost always be a higher priority than a 3rd LB because the OL plays almost twice as many snaps as the 3rd LB.  Unless Barr doesn't get an extension which is unlikely then LB won't be a high priority.  With the information we have been provided so far we have no reason to think that both QBs won't be on the roster next year making OL the higher priority.  We have multiple young and high potential DBs on the rost right now making CB and S lower priorities than OL.

Dude, we're looking at POTENTIAL FUTURE NEEDS.  That in itself is inherently referring to something not working out.  So anything I mentioned is absolutely the worst case POSSIBLE scenario where it would mean we have needs.  I am, of course, not going to the extremes of trying to predict catastrophic injuries like Bridgewater suffered last year, but barring unforeseeable injuries like that, that is my process here.  I do of course mention things like Bradford and Barr's injury histories, because they're extensive and predictable.  I was absolutely shocked that Bradford survived last season behind that horrendous OL.  

Barr was very average, if that, last year.  You don't give someone a huge contract if they're never healthy.  So if he's dinged up again, and his play is representative of what you'd get out of a 5 mill a year player and he's asking for 12 mill (like his option to his contract is), you pass on that every time.  What do you think they did with Kalil?  Same thing.  Granted Barr is much better than Kalil when he's actually healthy, but the thought process remains.  I am simply looking at all variables here that may lead to him not being retained when his contract is up after this season.  If he's not retained (I think he will be, and I'm not sure I like that.....I know I don't like it if he's given a huge contract without lots of loopholes to void it if he wusses out again) then LB is an enormous need.  

I agree with a lot of your 2nd paragraph.  But if they don't show progress, or aren't re-signed, you are forced to replace them whether you want to or not.  Draft status makes very little difference 2-3 years down the road.  Busts are busts.  Good players are good players.  Who is better, Adam Thielen or Laquon Treadwell?  No comparison.  Berger vs Clemmings?  One was a 4th in his prime, the other is an old journeyman career backup until the last few years in MN.  I know, those are extremes, and it's overkill, but I'm just illustrating my point lol.

Agreed OL trumps 3rd LB.  It trumps most things to me.  I'm the biggest pro-OL advocate you'll find typically.  As for Bridgewater, I'll believe it when I see it.  He was a career game manager/backup anyway in my book.  Bradford is much better.  So the key is re-signing Bradford.  Bridgewater is simply a backup/depth option to me.  

 

For the record, I am anticipating OL being the biggest need.  I was merely pointing out scenarios where it might not be so we shouldn't go in assuming needing OL, OL, OL as usual.  I like the talent on the roster overall and think it's pretty solid, but I personally don't like the future next season at CB with just Rhodes, a 40 year old Newman (retired by then?), Waynes and Alexander, and I really don't like any safety on the roster aside from Dirty Harry.  

[vikingsrule]

The Cb situation should be fine other than maybe finding a veteran backup. Our top 3 CBs will be a top 10 CB, a top 11 pick and a second rd pick. Hard to invest anymore into the position at this point. Bring in a veteran dime CB and maybe a mid round rookie for depth. No way is it an early round need.

[SteelKing728]

I saw that Willie Beavers has improved greatly over last season.

I haven't watched him though. Is this true?

[Cearbhall]

1 hour ago, SteelKing728 said:

I saw that Willie Beavers has improved greatly over last season.

I haven't watched him though. Is this true?

Hard to say, but the coaches seem to think he is deserving of opportunities over guys like Clemmings.  It is debatable whether that is an indictment upon the competition or Beavers really has improved that much. It is probably some of each. My expectations for Beavers (and his competition for backup spots) is really, really low. I think they all need to be replaced as soon as practical with guys that can push the starters at least half of which need to be upgraded/replaced themselves. Reiff might be average and he is the best of the bunch until one of the young guys proves to be better than average. Optimism about Elflein is running high.

Fwiw, Beavers hasn't looked completely lost during his preseason action. That is a sign that there has been at least some improvement.

[SemperFeist]

I haven't paid much attention to Beavers, but off the top of my head, I can't think of a play this preseason where he's gotten completely blown past around the corner. 

Cant say the same for Hill, Remmers, or Sirles. 

[swede700]

The fact that we haven't even heard Beavers' name being mentioned during the broadcast means he's improved dramatically.

[Heimdallr]

If it was up to me, I'd go with an OT in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round and see what happens. 

[vikingsrule]

4 hours ago, Heimdallr said:

If it was up to me, I'd go with an OT in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd round and see what happens. 

Probably overkill given that Reiff is likely a 2-3 year starter at the least. Unless you're implying he moves inside to G.

 

[Magnus-Viktor]

On 8/24/2017 at 5:18 PM, vikingsrule said:

The Cb situation should be fine other than maybe finding a veteran backup. Our top 3 CBs will be a top 10 CB, a top 11 pick and a second rd pick. Hard to invest anymore into the position at this point. Bring in a veteran dime CB and maybe a mid round rookie for depth. No way is it an early round need.

It's thinking like that which leaves you with Christian Ponder for years, when it was obvious after 1 season he was a scrub.  Just to be clear, I'm not saying the Vikes should give up on Waynes or Alexander already.  Not at all.  I'm simply pointing out the fact that you can't base future decisions on past mistakes.  If after this season neither of them look like they're going to be quality starters, it's back to the drawing board.  You can't pass up on superior players because of scrubs on the roster, just because you spent high draft picks on them.  

Ryan Tannehill instead of Matt Kalil in 2012, the next draft after Ponder?  I would've drafted him.  He's been pretty solid the last 3 years.  92.8, 88.7 and 93.5 QB rates the last 3 years, on a bad team with a coaching carousel.  

How about Russell Wilson in that same draft, in the 3rd round?  He'd sure be a lot better than Josh Robinson was in 3.  I liked him better when he was at NC State than when he was at WI.  I really liked him at NC State but by the time the draft rolled around I'd soured on his size too much I think.  

Kirk Cousins in 4 the same draft?  You don't pass up on superior talent because you wasted an early pick on a scrub like Ponder.  

 

2013 had none.

 

2014, they were right back to QB again.  They also drafted the wrong guy, but I digress.  

2015 none available

2016 - a horrible draft by the Vikes IMO.  Every pick was a terrible pick to me.  No decent QBs available except the fluke Dak Prescott in 4.  For the record, not using hindsite, this is the draft I would've done in 2016 (ignoring QB because even though I felt Bridgewater was very mediocre I knew he wasn't being replaced already):  

1.  Jason Spriggs, LT
2.  Cody Whitehair, C
3.  Justin Simmons, S (I wouldn't have punted in 3, so I would've made the pick with both Simmons and Miles Killebrew available still)
4.  Jordan Howard, RB (I would've planned for life after Adrian with a power back to compliment McKinnon - notice I took Howard's LT in 1)
5.  Christian Westerman, G/C
6.  Moritz Böhringer, WR (yes, I would've taken him.  his athleticism was off the charts and I like to take high upside guys in late rounds)
6.  Daniel Lasco, RB (Anthony Zettel and Jeff Driskel were tempting - Lasco is a potential Robert Smith-type slasher)
7.  Devon Cajuste, TE/WR/HB

[vikingsrule]

Waynes and Alexander have barely had opportunities to play. You've got to give them a chance before writing them off, taking another CB early would indicate that their future  is in serious jeopardy. Ponder at least had chances and proved to be a bust pretty early on in his career.

stacking up on positions of stength is also how you end up with an OL like we did last year and even this year, I'm still anticipating that the Vikes OL will be bottom 5 in pass protection. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by vikingsrule

[Purplexing]

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

Waynes and Alexander have barely had opportunities to play. You've got to give them a chance before writing them off, taking another CB early would indicate that their future  is in serious jeopardy. Ponder at least had chances and proved to be a bust pretty early on in his career.

stacking up on positions of stength is also how you end up with an OL like we did last year and even this year, I'm still anticipating that the Vikes OL will be bottom 5 in pass protection. 

Correct.  Some fans want to see a particular flashy position (QB, RB, WR, CB) filled with the best talent available, and ignore other weaknesses to the detriment of the TEAM.  So, a good unit (DBs) will be their focus for upgrading while a terrible unit remains bad or gets worse (OL).

Denny Green never got beyond the first round of the playoffs for a few years, and never reached a SB with a very talented O and awful D because he had generally poor coaches on D, mediocre defensive talent drafted* or signed as FAs, and no understanding of balance in a team.   * - One exception was drafted DL, who seemed to have talent, but which the D coaches never developed.