The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

[Cearbhall]

14 hours ago, PrplChilPill said:

Given that you need five OL, you can't just never draft them high, just because other players have more value. You don't keep drafting quarterbacks and tight ends because of value. Or, you don't draft them high, and have a terrible OL. And no super bowl, heck, maybe no playoffs. Even with all that great value itn the defense.

What we need to have is a discussion about value. Setting it up as a choice between drafting for value and need is a false dichotomy. As I mentioned above the Vikings need to invest heavy resources into determining what they need to do to increase the offensive line value they draw out of the draft. That involves putting resources into improving how they evaluate players at the position. It also involves re-assessing how they value the position. 

When the team gets better at evaluating players coupled with properly valuing the position, their draft boards will start showing a lot more offensive linemen available where they expect them to be available. With that the team can most efficiently maneuver around the draft to pick up offensive linemen when the value is there.

However, even if the team achieves ideal state evaluating players in the draft and valuing the position they absolutely should not be relying on the draft to fill their immediate needs. The team needs to get two starting guards before the draft.

The first steps are determining which blocking system they want to rely most heavily upon and bringing in the best offensive line coach money can buy. With the blocking scheme determined -- with an eye towards the players the team has and can have, the team needs to build a complete offensive line before the draft. 

During the draft, the team needs to have accurate evaluations of the players available and value the position correctly to manipulate themselves into position to draft offensive linemen of value to backup the already built offensive line. If the team does well, many of these guys will eventually earn starting spots so the team won't forever be in the cycle of needing to bring in experienced starters on the offensive line.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Cearbhall

[swede700]

I'm still in favor of bringing back Easton and drafting a guard somewhere in the 2nd-3rd rd to compete with Isidora to start at RG.  I think if they can solve at least 1 of the starting G positions, they'll be in a much better situation.  Previous good Vikings' offensive lines got by with David Dixon and Charlie Johnson/Anthony Herrera...if they can get solid play out of both tackles, LG and C, they can account for possible weaker play at the RG position.  

[vikingsrule]

49 minutes ago, swede700 said:

I'm still in favor of bringing back Easton and drafting a guard somewhere in the 2nd-3rd rd to compete with Isidora to start at RG.  I think if they can solve at least 1 of the starting G positions, they'll be in a much better situation.  Previous good Vikings' offensive lines got by with David Dixon and Charlie Johnson/Anthony Herrera...if they can get solid play out of both tackles, LG and C, they can account for possible weaker play at the RG position.  

We've yet to see solid play from any of the three interior spots. But I agree, 2 of 3 have to be improved. Whether that be finding two new guards or a new guard and a new center. 

Schematically, I think you'd be able to get by if your LG is the weak link. You want to be strong at RG and C.

For me, let Easton start at LG. Draft a top 5 prospect at RG and hope you can get better play from Elflein or draft a better player in rounds 2-5.

Edited December 6, 2018 by vikingsrule

[Guest]

1 hour ago, vikingsrule said:

We've yet to see solid play from any of the three interior spots. But I agree, 2 of 3 have to be improved. Whether that be finding two new guards or a new guard and a new center. 

Schematically, I think you'd be able to get by if your LG is the weak link. You want to be strong at RG and C.

For me, let Easton start at LG. Draft a top 5 prospect at RG and hope you can get better play from Elflein or draft a better player in rounds 2-5.

While I agree with this philosophy, I can also needing an upgrade at LT.  The consistent thing about Reiff is his inconsistency!  I know, part of the reason has been nagging injuries.  Even healthy, he's pretty middlin'.

[SemperFeist]

Reiff’s not going anywhere for probably 2 years based on his contract. Maybe we see him flip with O’Neill, but given the current skill set needed at tackle it doesn’t really matter. 

[vikingsrule]

51 minutes ago, SemperFeist said:

Reiff’s not going anywhere for probably 2 years based on his contract. Maybe we see him flip with O’Neill, but given the current skill set needed at tackle it doesn’t really matter. 

I don't think tackle really gets considered early this year. Perhaps they grab a positional flexible Guard/Tackle type in round one who might be able to start at OG and slide into a tackle spot down the road. 

I'm willing to give Reiff the benefit of the doubt due to the injury, he was good last year. O'Neill looks promising as a pass blocker.

[sparkyjoe1]

How much do you think bringing in the right OL coach would help the players we have right now?  Obviously something needs to be done to fix the line, but it doesn't look too promising (at this point) that we'll get much of an upgrade via FA nor the draft.  Any good candidates that might be available as far as OL coaches?  How much do you think a new OC would increase the potential to help our line?  How much does our current OC hurt/help our OL?  I hope they explore all options, not only adding new players...

[Guest]

3 hours ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

How much do you think bringing in the right OL coach would help the players we have right now?  Obviously something needs to be done to fix the line, but it doesn't look too promising (at this point) that we'll get much of an upgrade via FA nor the draft.  Any good candidates that might be available as far as OL coaches?  How much do you think a new OC would increase the potential to help our line?  How much does our current OC hurt/help our OL?  I hope they explore all options, not only adding new players...

I think an OL coach can make some difference.  My questions with OLine is are we using the right scheme for the players we have?  And, do we have the players on the Oline  now that can prosper against better defensive opponents with better coaching?  I wonder just how much improvement is possible with the talent that currently exists?  If we need to upgrade talent, where is it going to come from?  Colleges don't play football anymore. At least a brand of football I don't recognize!! And rarely do talented offensive linemen reach free agency?  Part of me believes the Vikings are kind of screwed for at least another season, maybe two.

[PrplChilPill]

16 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

I think an OL coach can make some difference.  My questions with OLine is are we using the right scheme for the players we have?  And, do we have the players on the Oline  now that can prosper against better defensive opponents with better coaching?  I wonder just how much improvement is possible with the talent that currently exists?  If we need to upgrade talent, where is it going to come from?  Colleges don't play football anymore. At least a brand of football I don't recognize!! And rarely do talented offensive linemen reach free agency?  Part of me believes the Vikings are kind of screwed for at least another season, maybe two.

Or, change the offense to reflect the talent you have, rather than trying to pigeon hole it to something you don't. 

Talent wins. They need talent. All the Ol coaching in the world won't fix this interior OL.

[SemperFeist]

 

[Kparty15]

I understand that we have to work with what we have this year, but I don’t think that Compton or O’Neil should’ve been starters this year.  That being said for the rest of the season I would like to see O’Neil develop as a backup.  He has played better than I thought he would this year, but he was such a project coming out I don’t think he’s ready to start yet.   Slide Remmers to RT where he is significantly better, and bring Brett Jones up to start at OG.  I think that would help our OT spots significantly.

Next year I would like to keep both Easton and Jones on the roster since both can play OG and C at a decent level.  We can cut Remmers for cap space and O’Neil should be a better starter by next year at RT.  The we can draft a good OG in the first two rounds.

[PrplChilPill]

38 minutes ago, Kparty15 said:

I understand that we have to work with what we have this year, but I don’t think that Compton or O’Neil should’ve been starters this year.  That being said for the rest of the season I would like to see O’Neil develop as a backup.  He has played better than I thought he would this year, but he was such a project coming out I don’t think he’s ready to start yet.   Slide Remmers to RT where he is significantly better, and bring Brett Jones up to start at OG.  I think that would help our OT spots significantly.

Next year I would like to keep both Easton and Jones on the roster since both can play OG and C at a decent level.  We can cut Remmers for cap space and O’Neil should be a better starter by next year at RT.  The we can draft a good OG in the first two rounds.

Wouldn't O'Neil be better next year if he played more this year? I don't get that argument at all.

[SemperFeist]

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, SemperFeist said:

 

If the Vikings OLine is the fourth best at protecting the QB, and Thielen and Diggs are widely considered the best receiving tandem in the league, then why is the team struggling??  Why hasn't Kirk produced better results?  Why has the team been stymied again and again from moving the ball down field and scoring touchdowns?

[SemperFeist]

15 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

If the Vikings OLine is the fourth best at protecting the QB, and Thielen and Diggs are widely considered the best receiving tandem in the league, then why is the team struggling??  Why hasn't Kirk produced better results?  Why has the team been stymied again and again from moving the ball down field and scoring touchdowns?

I don’t think this indicates that the O-line is 4th best. You can give up a lot of pressure without the QB actually getting hit. 

PFF lists Cousins as the most pressured QB. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by SemperFeist