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SemperFeist

The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

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Bradbury has not been that bad. 

I really don't put much stock in PFF line grades. Bradbury hasn't been great, but he's been better than Elflein was last year. He's made some excellent plays and has had a couple of penalties. I suspect he'll get much better by year's end. 

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Bradbury has absolutely demolished on some run plays. He’s had some issues, but I don’t think he has been that bad. Meh, he’s a rookie. 

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23 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

How do the rankings work? Dozier and Kline have the same grade but are 50 different in rankings. 

That was my mistake...The rankings were right but I had wrong grades for Guards and Centers...I updated it with the right grades now.

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3 minutes ago, upriser7 said:

That was my mistake...The rankings were right but I had wrong grades for Guards and Centers...I updated it with the right grades now.

That makes a lot more sense. I don't know if I've ever seen a 6.6 grade

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2 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

That makes a lot more sense. I don't know if I've ever seen a 6.6 grade

yeah...that was rough.

Small sample but he seems to be improving so far with each match -

Game1: Overall Grade - 35.1, Pass Block Grade - 0.0, Run Block Grade - 51.5

Game2 Overall Grade -  47.9, Pass Block Grade - 16.3, Run Block Grade - 58.6

Game3: Overall Grade - 53.8, Pass Block Grade - 51.9, Run Block Grade - 54

This week will be a huge test against that Bears DL...especially Hicks.

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58 minutes ago, HitStickAllDay said:

Bradbury has absolutely demolished on some run plays. He’s had some issues, but I don’t think he has been that bad. Meh, he’s a rookie. 

Agreed, while he has been an obvious problem some of the time he has also flashed some. For a rookie, you want to see those flashes. You also want to see improvement throughout the year and we have been seeing that too. So, while he has so far been fairly poor, I don't yet see cause for alarm.

If, on the other hand, Bradbury starts to level out or regress the team may have to look at inserting Jones at center. I think that Bradbury will continue to improve though so I hope they keep playing him.

Edited by Cearbhall

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I think he’s a perfect fit for our zone blocking scheme. Comparisons to Jason Kelce are warranted. It’ll be interesting to see how adept he gets at calling out protections and if he figures out how to be more stout in the pass game. I wonder how much having Elflein on his left impacts his ability to be effective? I lack the understanding of blocking schemes to know if that is a thing. Can’t imagine it helps. 

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6 minutes ago, HitStickAllDay said:

I wonder how much having Elflein on his left impacts his ability to be effective? I lack the understanding of blocking schemes to know if that is a thing. Can’t imagine it helps. 

While you are right to imagine it doesn't help, I would think that it mostly hurts his ability to get to the second level. Although, there is something to not trusting the guy next you you and/or feeling like you need to do something to make up for his shortcomings. I would hope that Bradbury isn't worrying about that, but my hope doesn't at all mean he isn't.

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1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

While you are right to imagine it doesn't help, I would think that it mostly hurts his ability to get to the second level. Although, there is something to not trusting the guy next you you and/or feeling like you need to do something to make up for his shortcomings. I would hope that Bradbury isn't worrying about that, but my hope doesn't at all mean he isn't.

Yeah. We are on the same page. I don’t really know why Bradbury struggles in the pass game. His PFF grade indicates he’s doing poorly in the run, but I’ve seen those flashes where he is instrumental in the success of the play. Hope he keeps developing. 

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14 hours ago, whitehops said:

i guess that's why they are the PR team. PFF has our offensive line ranked 24th so far: https://www.pff.com/news/pro-pff-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-following-week-3-of-the-2019-nfl-season

I have little to no faith in PFF's rankings of offensive line play.  It's far too subjective...they've gotten better, but they'll never be very accurate because of that.  FootballOutsiders has the Vikings' offensive line play as 4th in run-blocking and 8th in pass blocking.  

Edited by swede700

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2 hours ago, swede700 said:

I have little to no faith in PFF's rankings of offensive line play.  It's far too subjective...they've gotten better, but they'll never be very accurate because of that.  FootballOutsiders has the Vikings' offensive line play as 4th in run-blocking and 8th in pass blocking.  

PFF grades are pretty good, especially for line play.

FO is analyzing results (sacks and QB hits, yardage gained or lost on runs), not process. Those results include the effects of scheme, play calling and QB/RB talent and play style.

A QB or offensive scheme that gets rid of the ball quickly will take pressure on a lower percentage of throws, even if that scheme comes as the result of poor OL play. For instance the 2016 Vikings OL had better pass blocking results (fewer pressures allowed per dropback) than 2017, because Bradford was throwing quick checkdowns all day, while Keenum was holding the ball and improvising. Even so, the 2016 OL was much, much worse in terms of the quality of its pass blocking. That difference shows up in the PFF grades. 

Similarly, a well designed run scheme and play calling will be more effective than a poor scheme, even if the quality of the blocking is the same. RB decision making (and vision, and agility) also has an effect, as we see with Cook and Mattison this year being able to take advantage of holes created, while in previous years some Vikings backs have struggled to do so (like Murray, and especially Asiata). 

I think it’s fair to say that Bradbury has struggled in pass blocking, though in his defense the sample size is small and much of that has been against top level talent like Jarrett and Clark. Centers are less important to pass pro than any other member of the OL so thankfully the effect has been modest. 

Elflein has been mediocre and Kline pretty good at guard. Reiff has been solid and O’Neill very good at tackle. Dozier has been mediocre but not terrible.

Overall their pass protection numbers are heavily influenced by the scheme, which is having Cousins hold the ball on play action and screens. There have been few quick throws in rhythm. The run blocking has been good but not amazing, and the scheme and supporting cast (Ham, Irv especially) are creating some of the openings that the RBs have taken full advantage of. 

The Bears will be a great test this weekend, especially if Hicks is healthy. 

Edited by Krauser

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Josh Kline was very much missed against Chicago. Kind of funny considering how panned the signing was, but he’s been a big upgrade at right guard. 

But it’s time for Elflein to see the pine. He’s just not good. He’s not even passable as a starting o-lineman. At the very least they need to move Dozier to LG, but it may be time to see what Samia can do. 

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1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

Josh Kline was very much missed against Chicago. Kind of funny considering how panned the signing was, but he’s been a big upgrade at right guard. 

But it’s time for Elflein to see the pine. He’s just not good. He’s not even passable as a starting o-lineman. At the very least they need to move Dozier to LG, but it may be time to see what Samia can do. 

I know you say that Elflein wasn't good, but Bradbury was flat out awful yesterday, as far as I am concerned.  I'm sure someone, namely @Krauser, will tell me differently once he watches the tape (as I know he missed the game yesterday), but Bradbury looked terrible...and of course, Reiff was understandably bad as well.  

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1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

Josh Kline was very much missed against Chicago. Kind of funny considering how panned the signing was, but he’s been a big upgrade at right guard. 

But it’s time for Elflein to see the pine. He’s just not good. He’s not even passable as a starting o-lineman. At the very least they need to move Dozier to LG, but it may be time to see what Samia can do. 

I agree. Kline has performed well, I thought it was a signing that wouldn’t have offered more than what Remmes provided previously but he’s been a solid find. Not sure what they do with Elflein, but I feel good about the options in Dozier and Samia.

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