The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

[Kparty15]

1 hour ago, SemperFeist said:

I don’t think this indicates that the O-line is 4th best. You can give up a lot of pressure without the QB actually getting hit. 

PFF lists Cousins as the most pressured QB. 

Lol I was gonna say...  Our OL seems a lot worse than the 4th best, but yeah pressures and run blocking are stats too.  I think if we run the ball more and make the offense less predictable it will help our OL in pass protection a bit too.

[vikingsrule]

I don't think the OL is as bad as made out to be in terms of pass protection. We're probably average.

Run blocking is a disaster. Any time this team needs to run for a yard, the only effective play seems to be the QB sneak.

[RpMc]

9 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

I don't think the OL is as bad as made out to be in terms of pass protection. We're probably average.

Run blocking is a disaster. Any time this team needs to run for a yard, the only effective play seems to be the QB sneak.

Pass blocking on the interior is horrid. Very infrequently is there any semblence of a pocket because they’re pushed back off the LoS. 

[vike daddy]

Andrew Krammer of the Star Tribune recently wrote that rookie right tackle Brian O’Neill has been a pleasant surprise, as the 2018 second-round pick has worked his way into the starting lineup over the past two months:

"The second-round pick was at risk of losing the swing tackle job (No. 3 on the depth chart) to Aviante Collins while O'Neill struggled during joint practices and a preseason game against the Jaguars. He's since started nine games at right tackle, taking the job from Rashod Hill while not surrendering a sack, according to Pro Football Focus. Now that doesn't mean O'Neill hasn't struggled. He's got room to grow (literally by adding muscle), but he's impressed coaches with his strides improving technique during just his fourth year playing offensive line. He looks like a solid foundational piece for the future, which is the goal when drafting in the second round."

O’Neill has started nine games but has played in all 13 games for the Vikings as a rookie. He originally went to Pittsburgh as a tight end but moved to the offensive line after his redshirt freshman season. He started the final 37 games of his college career at offensive tackle.

https://www.vikings.com/news/lunchbreak-espn-tabs-smith-as-nfl-s-best-run-defender-at-safety?sf204661275=1

[swede700]

Hopefully, Collins can lock down the #1 swing tackle next season when he comes back.  It'll also be interesting to see if they even bother tendering Rashod Hill when he's a RFA after the season, or if they just move on.  

Edited December 20, 2018 by swede700

[vikingsrule]

2 minutes ago, swede700 said:

Hopefully, Collins can lock down the #1 swing tackle next season when he comes back.  It'll also be interesting to see if they even bother tendering Rashod Hill when he's a RFA after the season, or if they just move on.  

I don't know why you wouldn't just keep Hill and Collins. Can't imagine the lowest RFA tender is all that much especially for a backup with some experience.

[SemperFeist]

You defintely bring Hill back on a right of first refusal tender. 

Hill might not be the guy you want starting for 16 games, but he’s a good backup. And one who can play on both sides. 

[Krauser]

They’re in good shape at tackle.

Reiff has been solid except for the Bills game when he was evidently playing hurt (allowed 1 sack, 2 hits and 9 hurries in that one game, compared to 1 sack, 2 hits and 20 hurries in his other 10 games combined).  Reiff is a team leader, and his contract is expensive but not unduly considering the positional value.

O’Neill has been very good for a rookie. He’s managed to overcome the lack of anchor / play strength that many draft evaluators thought would limit him. He has room for improvement but they should be optimistic about him as a long-term starter.

Hill is good depth, OK as a spot starter but but not so good that he’s going to get a contract to start elsewhere. They should definitely try to retain him as the swing tackle.

The IOL has been bad mainly because of Elflein. He’s been much worse than he was a rookie. Seems the injuries and rehab took a lot of out of him. I think you have to have a veteran who could push him for playing time (like Brett Jones this year) but I can’t imagine he isn’t back as the expected starter next year. The good news is if he can stay healthy into the offseason, he should finally be able to get stronger, and that might be enough to get him back on track with his expected development.

Compton is playing pretty well. He’s allowed a couple of quick sacks and taken a few penalties but otherwise he’s been solid. Vikings fans who complain about the OL are underrating what he’s done this year. Compton’s PFF grades are only slightly worse than Hernandez, the same or better than all the other rookie options for LG (including Ragnow if he’d fallen), and better than Easton last year. He’s their 26th graded guard. I think they should try to keep him on a short term FA deal. Don’t think he’ll cost much.

Remmers has been disappointing. He’s clearly worse at guard than he was at tackle, and he hasn’t improved much as the year’s gone on. I don’t expect him back next year unless he noticeably elevates his game for the rest of this season.

Not optimistic Isidora will ever be more than a backup, he hasn’t played well in his limited opportunities. He can stick around as a depth guy on his rookie contract.

So my tentative plan for the OL is:

• cut Remmers
• sign Compton to a cheap short term UFA deal, planning to start him at LG
• sign a swing IOL who can backup at C
• sigh Hill as the swing T
• draft a RG starter in round 1 or 2

Reiff - Compton - Elflein - Rookie - O’Neill

Hill, Isidora, veteran backup IOL

 

[vikingsrule]

56 minutes ago, Krauser said:

They’re in good shape at tackle.

Reiff has been solid except for the Bills game when he was evidently playing hurt (allowed 1 sack, 2 hits and 9 hurries in that one game, compared to 1 sack, 2 hits and 20 hurries in his other 10 games combined).  Reiff is a team leader, and his contract is expensive but not unduly considering the positional value.

O’Neill has been very good for a rookie. He’s managed to overcome the lack of anchor / play strength that many draft evaluators thought would limit him. He has room for improvement but they should be optimistic about him as a long-term starter.

Hill is good depth, OK as a spot starter but but not so good that he’s going to get a contract to start elsewhere. They should definitely try to retain him as the swing tackle.

The IOL has been bad mainly because of Elflein. He’s been much worse than he was a rookie. Seems the injuries and rehab took a lot of out of him. I think you have to have a veteran who could push him for playing time (like Brett Jones this year) but I can’t imagine he isn’t back as the expected starter next year. The good news is if he can stay healthy into the offseason, he should finally be able to get stronger, and that might be enough to get him back on track with his expected development.

Compton is playing pretty well. He’s allowed a couple of quick sacks and taken a few penalties but otherwise he’s been solid. Vikings fans who complain about the OL are underrating what he’s done this year. Compton’s PFF grades are only slightly worse than Hernandez, the same or better than all the other rookie options for LG (including Ragnow if he’d fallen), and better than Easton last year. He’s their 26th graded guard. I think they should try to keep him on a short term FA deal. Don’t think he’ll cost much.

Remmers has been disappointing. He’s clearly worse at guard than he was at tackle, and he hasn’t improved much as the year’s gone on. I don’t expect him back next year unless he noticeably elevates his game for the rest of this season.

Not optimistic Isidora will ever be more than a backup, he hasn’t played well in his limited opportunities. He can stick around as a depth guy on his rookie contract.

So my tentative plan for the OL is:

• cut Remmers
• sign Compton to a cheap short term UFA deal, planning to start him at LG
• sign a swing IOL who can backup at C
• sigh Hill as the swing T
• draft a RG starter in round 1 or 2

Reiff - Compton - Elflein - Rookie - O’Neill

Hill, Isidora, veteran backup IOL

 

I'd bring back Nick Easton as your potential swing IOL. He could push Elflen at Center and Compton at LG. Obviously, Easton needs to be healthy but I'd imagine he'd be a cheap pickup. I don't think MN can afford to give out a $10+ Million FA contract to an OL nor are there any worth it.

I think the Tackle situation is fine. I just wouldn't be opposed to adding more talent there is a good player falls.

Edited December 21, 2018 by vikingsrule

[Krauser]

2 minutes ago, vikingsrule said:

I'd bring back Nick Easton as your potential swing IOL. He could push Elflen at Center and Compton at LG. Obviously, Easton needs to be healthy but I'd imagine he'd be a cheap pickup. I don't think MN can afford to give out a $10+ Million FA contract to an OL nor are there any worth it.

I think the Tackle situation is fine. I just wouldn't be opposed to adding more talent there is a good player falls.

Any C-spine problem that kept Easton out all year is likely career ending. I don’t expect him back.

I don’t think they’ll sign an expensive FA.

They don’t need to draft a tackle. Reiff and O’Neill are your starters for the next 3 years. 

[vikingsrule]

12 minutes ago, Krauser said:

Any C-spine problem that kept Easton out all year is likely career ending. I don’t expect him back.

I don’t think they’ll sign an expensive FA.

They don’t need to draft a tackle. Reiff and O’Neill are your starters for the next 3 years. 

I'm not convinced that Reiff, at 30, will maintain this level for 3 more years. His cap hit exceeds $13 million in 2020 and 2021. I see the need to build up the OL but I'd rather take a more long term approach, even if that means ending up with another starring caliber Tackle because the value makes sense. Id hope that player could start off inside and then you reasses the LT situation in 2020 when Reiff is 31 making $13 million as a fairly mediocre to above average LT.

Edited December 21, 2018 by vikingsrule

[gopherwrestler]

On 12/5/2018 at 8:40 PM, PrplChilPill said:

And apparently the draft is not good, so I guess they should not even bother? Just keep adding to the defense, and keep on not winning anything that matters. yes, I'm bitter about this season.

Draft ain’t bad, but you can’t expect to find some Quenton Nelson this draft. There just isn’t a ton of pro ready lineman either way this year

[Cearbhall]

2 hours ago, Krauser said:

So my tentative plan for the OL is:

• cut Remmers
• sign Compton to a cheap short term UFA deal, planning to start him at LG
• sign a swing IOL who can backup at C
• sigh Hill as the swing T
• draft a RG starter in round 1 or 2

Reiff - Compton - Elflein - Rookie - O’Neill

Hill, Isidora, veteran backup IOL

I agree with your assessment. However, I would have a somewhat different plan based on that assessment. Your tentative plan has a chance of working nicely. I do think the odds of things working out nicely can be improved upon enough to justify the associated additional cost. Your solution is a nice tactical approach. Given that I believe the problem is systemic, I would be looking for a strategic solution rather than a tactical solution. Here is what my plan would be based upon your great assessment of the situation:

First, start with a deep look at the team's methodology and personnel involved in scouting and valuing offensive linemen in the draft and free agency. Spare no expense to bring help into the organization to improve this area.

Second, based on evaluations of options available to the team (from inside the organization as well as outside the organization) decide on an identity and scheme for a successful offensive line and offense in 2019.

Third, spare no expense to hire the best offensive coordinator and offensive line coach to bring success to the offense given the above decision.

Fourth, accumulate the boots on the ground to accomplish the planned mission. Obviously, by this point the actual details will be vastly different depending on what happens with the first three priorities. Below is merely a possible example:

• cut Remmers
• sign Compton to a cheap short term UFA deal, planning to to use him as an interior line backup
• sign a swing IOL who can start at C. Easton was my thought, but if you are right about his health situation find someone else that can do it. Plan on Elflein being the backup until he shows he should be starting
• sigh Hill as the swing T
• Sign two solid proven guards to start next year (Ramon Foster and Matt Slausen is where I would initially set my sights)
• Draft a LT future starter in round 1 or 2, if any of value are available
• Look for a guard in the draft for the team to try and develop as a future starter not ruling out using a resource as high as a first round pick if the right guy is there

Reiff - FA - Easton (or given health similar alternative) - FA - O'Neill

Hill/rookie LT (if value jumps out early in the draft), Compton, Elflein, rookie G

IMO, any plan that counts on Isidora contributing even as a backup next year is not a good enough plan. Similarly, any plan that would count on Elflein as the starter concerns me. That is not to say that neither of these guys can win those roles. The plan simply should not count on it. It would be great if they rose to the challenge. This is not at all unlike my statements after last season that the plan should not count on Easton and Elflein starting this season.

My plan will cost plenty million more against the cap next year than your plan but the importance of getting it right makes that the place where I would choose to spend those dollars. I am not as much of the opinion to move on from Rudolph as some others here but if needing to move on from Rudolph is the cost to accomplish this goal I wouldn't hesitate. To address the offensive line concern bold decisions will need to be made. Bold action is needed. The continual state of the offensive line for almost this entire century, coupled with the relative importance to overall success, dictates that dealing with this position group does not lend itself to meek or conservative approaches towards solving the problem.

Edited December 21, 2018 by Cearbhall

[Krauser]

Slauson will be 33 in February and hasn't been a starter since 2016. He's not much better than Compton.

Foster will be 33 in January. He's a very good guard but I can't see the Vikings offering him a long-term contract at that age.

Compton won't sign too cheap after starting a full season and playing well, but hopefully they can keep him for something close to the RFA money Easton was getting this year ($3-4M)

I'm projecting Isidora as the 2nd backup at guard behind whoever the veteran swing IOL backup is (Brett Jones?). That's appropriate, he's good enough to be in that role. 

Elflein will be the starter next year. He's the main problem with the OL this year, but I think he'll get one more year with (hopefully) a healthy offseason to try to live up to expectations. 

It would be crazy to draft a LT in the first or second round with Reiff signed for 3 more years. Reiff just turned 30, which isn't old for a tackle. He has the 11th highest cap hit at his position next year. No need to replace him for at least 2 years. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Krauser said:

They’re in good shape at tackle.

Reiff has been solid except for the Bills game when he was evidently playing hurt (allowed 1 sack, 2 hits and 9 hurries in that one game, compared to 1 sack, 2 hits and 20 hurries in his other 10 games combined).  Reiff is a team leader, and his contract is expensive but not unduly considering the positional value.

O’Neill has been very good for a rookie. He’s managed to overcome the lack of anchor / play strength that many draft evaluators thought would limit him. He has room for improvement but they should be optimistic about him as a long-term starter.

Hill is good depth, OK as a spot starter but but not so good that he’s going to get a contract to start elsewhere. They should definitely try to retain him as the swing tackle.

The IOL has been bad mainly because of Elflein. He’s been much worse than he was a rookie. Seems the injuries and rehab took a lot of out of him. I think you have to have a veteran who could push him for playing time (like Brett Jones this year) but I can’t imagine he isn’t back as the expected starter next year. The good news is if he can stay healthy into the offseason, he should finally be able to get stronger, and that might be enough to get him back on track with his expected development.

Compton is playing pretty well. He’s allowed a couple of quick sacks and taken a few penalties but otherwise he’s been solid. Vikings fans who complain about the OL are underrating what he’s done this year. Compton’s PFF grades are only slightly worse than Hernandez, the same or better than all the other rookie options for LG (including Ragnow if he’d fallen), and better than Easton last year. He’s their 26th graded guard. I think they should try to keep him on a short term FA deal. Don’t think he’ll cost much.

Remmers has been disappointing. He’s clearly worse at guard than he was at tackle, and he hasn’t improved much as the year’s gone on. I don’t expect him back next year unless he noticeably elevates his game for the rest of this season.

Not optimistic Isidora will ever be more than a backup, he hasn’t played well in his limited opportunities. He can stick around as a depth guy on his rookie contract.

So my tentative plan for the OL is:

• cut Remmers
• sign Compton to a cheap short term UFA deal, planning to start him at LG
• sign a swing IOL who can backup at C
• sigh Hill as the swing T
• draft a RG starter in round 1 or 2

Reiff - Compton - Elflein - Rookie - O’Neill

Hill, Isidora, veteran backup IOL

 

I think this is a prime example of PFF statistics not exactly meshing with what I can see with my own eyes.  Compton and Remmers are both deficient guards.  Compton looks like he's confused in pass protection, and in the running game he's not very good blocking in space past the line of scrimmage.  Remmers is even worse.  Elflein, I agree should be all right with off season conditioning.  I think Spielman needs to make offensive line THE priority of free agency and the draft.