Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Krauser said: ...or it tells you that Samia has only lined up at RG this year (and I believe exclusively at that position in college too), and they're developing him to take over from Kline starting sometime next season. Isn't that another way of saying he hasn't developed enough in practice? It seems like you are saying the same thing that I said but trying to make it sound like something different by starting with "...or" 2 minutes ago, JDBrocks said: That is not what that means, and I don't know how you can say that with any certainty. I don't have enough certainty to tell someone else they are wrong, as you are doing with certainty....again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: I don't have enough certainty to tell someone else they are wrong, as you are doing with certainty....again. What you wrote, and what I quoted, was a causal statement. Implying certainty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said: I'm hesitant to call for Samia also but I don't think him not starting this year means that he isn't in the future plans. The coaches are very hesitant to make changes on the line in season and in the preseason it sounded like Samia was pretty raw. Of course I thought O-Neal would struggle more last year also so maybe Samia would be better than Elfein right off the bat Apologies. I didn't mean to say that Samia shouldn't be in their future plans if he hasn't developed enough in practice this year to get a look over Pat Elflein. When I said they wouldn't be able to count on him, what I meant as they should count on him as a started next year if he hasn't developed in practice enough this year to get some time ahead of the poor player they have out there. I left it implicit that I was talking about starting and that was a mistake on my part. I still think they should continue developing him as long as he is progressing. But, they shouldn't be planning on him starting if he hasn't developed enough by the end of the year to get some time, given what the team has out there starting. They should plan on him remaining as a backup to be developed, in that case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Just now, JDBrocks said: What you wrote, and what I quoted, was a causal statement. Implying certainty. No, what I wrote was an opinion. Any you seem certain it is wrong. That is fine, if you think it is wrong. If you want to pick a fight with me send me a direct message and I'll be happy to argue with you there. Nobody wants to see the argument here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikesfan89 Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Cearbhall said: Apologies. I didn't mean to say that Samia shouldn't be in their future plans if he hasn't developed enough in practice this year to get a look over Pat Elflein. When I said they wouldn't be able to count on him, what I meant as they should count on him as a started next year if he hasn't developed in practice enough this year to get some time ahead of the poor player they have out there. I left it implicit that I was talking about starting and that was a mistake on my part. I still think they should continue developing him as long as he is progressing. But, they shouldn't be planning on him starting if he hasn't developed enough by the end of the year to get some time, given what the team has out there starting. They should plan on him remaining as a backup to be developed, in that case. Yeah it'll be hard to count on him as a starter but maybe they'll let him compete for a starting job if they don't have enough resources to bring a quality starter in. Or they could project that he would be sufficient with another of season of improvement Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: No, what I wrote was an opinion. Any you seem certain it is wrong. That is fine, if you think it is wrong. If you want to pick a fight with me send me a direct message and I'll be happy to argue with you there. Nobody wants to see the argument here. Not picking a fight, just reacting to what you said on a message board. Ya know, a place where people talk about things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said: Yeah it'll be hard to count on him as a starter but maybe they'll let him compete for a starting job if they don't have enough resources to bring a quality starter in. Or they could project that he would be sufficient with another of season of improvement Absolutely. The key is that he would be competing for a starting job, they wouldn't be able to count on him being the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, JDBrocks said: Not picking a fight, just reacting to what you said on a message board. Ya know, a place where people talk about things. Right. A place where people express opinions and debate them. You are wont to simply tell people they are wrong without having a discussion or a debate. You didn't have anything to add such as an alternative viewpoint, supporting evidence, evidence that contradicts, or something of any real substance. Look how Krauser brought up a relevant point in response supporting that he hasn't developed enough. He put a finer point on that and explained it by saying he has only played RG. That explains more precisely exactly how he hasn't developed enough in practice to be placed in the lineup ahead of Pat Elflein. You are just trying to pick a fight. And if that is what you want to do I am fine with that. It would be better if you did it in a direct message rather than cluttering up the board with argumentative posts of no substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krauser Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: Isn't that another way of saying he hasn't developed enough in practice? It seems like you are saying the same thing that I said but trying to make it sound like something different by starting with "...or" I don't have enough certainty to tell someone else they are wrong, as you are doing with certainty....again. For whatever reason, the Vikings used Samia exclusively at RG this preseason. For whatever reason (IIRC), Samia played RG in college, and never LG. You're claiming that Samia not replacing Elflein is a sign that Samia is not developing. I'm saying he plays a different position. Not saying you're wrong, exactly, but your argument rests on a fact not in evidence. Also, Elflein is playing better than you think. He's the 15th highest graded guard in the NFL right now. The OL in general has been very effective the last 4 games. The run game has been excellent, in significant part due to Elflein, and the pass protection has been pretty good despite Elflein's struggles. They have 5 guys who are fully healthy (knock wood) and playing well as a unit. I doubt the Vikings coaches are looking to replace Elflein. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDBrocks Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: Right. A place where people express opinions and debate them. You are wont to simply tell people they are wrong without having a discussion or a debate. You didn't have anything to add such as an alternative viewpoint, supporting evidence, evidence that contradicts, or something of any real substance. Look how Krauser brought up a relevant point in response supporting that he hasn't developed enough. He put a finer point on that and explained it by saying he has only played RG. That explains more precisely exactly how he hasn't developed enough in practice to be placed in the lineup ahead of Pat Elflein. You are just trying to pick a fight. And if that is what you want to do I am fine with that. It would be better if you did it in a direct message rather than cluttering up the board with argumentative posts of no substance. Ok I'll elaborate. The way you wrote your statement, the one that I quoted, suggests/implies that if Samia isn't starting by the end of the year , that he won't be a starter next year. (If A, that tells you B). My response was that this statement wasn't true. There could be any number of reasons that Samia isn't starting this year. Samia being a RG is one of them. Elflein's improved play in the run game being another. Continuity along the line during a stretch of really good offensive production being yet another. I'm not picking a fight. Don't be so defensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Krauser said: You're claiming that Samia not replacing Elflein is a sign that Samia is not developing. I'm saying he plays a different position. Not saying you're wrong, exactly, but your argument rests on a fact not in evidence. Yikes. That is not what I was trying to claim. I was claiming that he wasn't developing enough to play ahead of Elflein, not that he wasn't developing at all. Further, if he hasn't developed enough to play in front of Elfein by the end of the year, assuming Elflein doesn't improve, is a sign that the team shouldn't count on him to be starting there next year. 4 minutes ago, Krauser said: Also, Elflein is playing better than you think. He's the 15th highest graded guard in the NFL right now. The OL in general has been very effective the last 4 games. The run game has been excellent, in significant part due to Elflein, and the pass protection has been pretty good despite Elflein's struggles. It doesn't surprise me if Elflein is playing better then I think, given how poorly I think he has been playing for his whole career. When you way he is the 15th highest graded guard, I assume you mean 15th highest in PFF grades. That doesn't mean too much to me because, well, PFF. I do happen to agree that Kendricks is playing great, but I appreciate Mike Zimmer's reaction to being told about PFFs grade for Kendricks. I feel that way about their offensive line grades too. Elflein makes some nice plays sometimes, but he lacks the consistency that I want to be comfortable with a guy being a starting guard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Just because Samia hasn't started this season doesn't mean he can't be in the plans to start next season (depending on the season plays out). As mentioned, Samia has been almost exclusively a RG. Moving him the LG this season probably isn't a good move. Likewise, moving Kline to LG and Samia at RG could throw off OL chemistry more than it helps. However, I think that could be a viable situation next season. I would be more than happy to see these 4 young OL develop into a solid long-term line: O'Neill, Bradbury, Samia, Udoh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cearbhall Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Just now, JDBrocks said: Ok I'll elaborate. The way you wrote your statement, the one that I quoted, suggests/implies that if Samia isn't starting by the end of the year , that he won't be a starter next year. (If A, that tells you B). My response was that this statement wasn't true. There could be any number of reasons that Samia isn't starting this year. Samia being a RG is one of them. Elflein's improved play in the run game being another. Continuity along the line during a stretch of really good offensive production being yet another. I'm not picking a fight. Don't be so defensive. That is better. Now you aren't just being antagonistic and we can discuss. I can see now that you misunderstood what I was saying. I didn't mean to say that Samia wouldn't be starting next year if he isn't starting by the end of this year. I mean that if he wasn't getting some time this year the team can't count on him as a starter next year. By that I do not mean that he can't be the starter, just that the team needs to have another plan in place. Samia could compete with that alternative for the starting job still. As far as Elflein's improved play in the ran game being a reason that Samia might not start over him, I meant to qualify the statement by predicating it on Elflein not improving. I thought I did that, but apparently I wasn't clear enough on that as we can see now based on your response. Thank you for giving me a chance to clarify that for you and anyone else that may have similarly missed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krauser Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: I was claiming that he wasn't developing enough to play ahead of Elflein, not that he wasn't developing at all. Further, if he hasn't developed enough to play in front of Elfein by the end of the year, assuming Elflein doesn't improve, is a sign that the team shouldn't count on him to be starting there next year. Again, that might make sense if there was any indication Samia was going to play LG. But so far, he's played exclusively on the right side. So it's not a bad sign for his development, now or at the end of the year. 6 minutes ago, Cearbhall said: When you way he is the 15th highest graded guard, I assume you mean 15th highest in PFF grades. That doesn't mean too much to me because, well, PFF. I do happen to agree that Kendricks is playing great, but I appreciate Mike Zimmer's reaction to being told about PFFs grade for Kendricks. I feel that way about their offensive line grades too. PFF's OL grades are very good. They developed their grading system with NFL people looking at film. Their results are typically quite close to consensus of which OL are better or worse. Ironically it was PFF grades that led to so much concern about Elflein in the first place. The average discussion about the Vikings OL at this time last year was about how terrible Compton was. It was the PFF grades that showed Elflein was the weak link, and had fallen off considerably since his rookie year. This year, those same grades following the same system show he's playing well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Plissken Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Thoughts on Samia playing RG next season and Kline at LG (has he played there before, shown success there)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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