The Often Overbearing, But Otherwise Ordinary Offensive Line

[Cearbhall]

1 minute ago, Krauser said:

Again, that might make sense if there was any indication Samia was going to play LG. But so far, he's played exclusively on the right side. So it's not a bad sign for his development, now or at the end of the year. 

I don't know about that. If he hasn't developed enough to get some playing time at RG, I do think that it is a strong sign that the team shouldn't count on him to start at RG next year. The fact he is being developed as a LG is a good reason to explain why he isn't getting playing time at RG. It seems you are confusing him not developing enough to get playing time at RG with his overall development. The two are not related.

This isn't particular to Samia either. The team shouldn't count on anyone as a starter on the offensive line that they haven't already seen take snaps in games. That is too risky. As they bring them along they can beat out a starter to get snaps or look good in spot duty filling in. Until then, the team shouldn't count on a developmental player to suddenly become a starter. Development is a more incremental process. Handing a guy like that a starting position on the offensive line is asking for trouble.

I understand that you are fond of PFF grades. I happen to not be so fond of them. I do like the information but I wouldn't rely on them quite as much. I do think it is a good sign that his PFF grades have been improving but there is no way I would draw the conclusion that he is the 15th best guard in the league because they have him as the 15th highest graded guard. I don't even think he is the best guard on the team and Josh Kline isn't exactly a world beater himself.

[swede700]

7 minutes ago, Snake Plissken said:

Thoughts on Samia playing RG next season and Kline at LG (has he played there before, shown success there)?

Kline started his career at LG in New England.  

I'm still in the camp of "as long as Elflein is improving at a decent rate, just let it be."  End of the year, we'll see where he's at.  

[Krauser]

8 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

If he hasn't developed enough to get some playing time at RG, I do think that it is a strong sign that the team shouldn't count on him to start at RG next year.

They won't have to "count on him to start" since Kline will still be on the team next year. But I expect Samia will get a chance to start at some point at RG next year.

10 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

The fact he is being developed as a LG is a good reason to explain why he isn't getting playing time at RG.

I don't understand this sentence. Maybe you got your LG and RG mixed up? Samia is playing RG ("being developed as a" RG), not LG, which is a good reason for him not getting playing time at LG.

11 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

It seems you are confusing him not developing enough to get playing time at RG with his overall development.

I don't think I'm confusing anything. I don't think the fact that Samia hasn't played yet tells us much. He was never expected to start this year. Dozier has been decent as a backup.

14 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I understand that you are fond of PFF grades. I happen to not be so fond of them.

I'm not sure how you are evaluating players otherwise. 

In my experience discussing football with fans online, most people aren't able to follow the line play closely enough in real time to understand what they're seeing. I tend to watch the OL/DL closely and rewind/replay most runs a few times to understand what happened in the trenches. Fans understandably tend to remember and focus on obvious mistakes (sacks, TFLs, penalties) and don't notice or remember what makes players better or worse on a down-by-down basis. 

PFF grades every player on every play. On that basis, their evaluation is that Elflein is playing well overall this year. He's been excellent as a run blocker, and mediocre as a pass blocker. Last year, they thought he was playing terribly. The discussion about needing to replace Elflein was based in significant part on his PFF grades.

I'm not sure why your evaluation would match PFF's so closely in one case but not the other.

[Cearbhall]

4 minutes ago, Krauser said:

I don't understand this sentence. Maybe you got your LG and RG mixed up?

You are right, I had them juxtaposed there. Thanks for catching that.

5 minutes ago, Krauser said:

I don't think I'm confusing anything. I don't think the fact that Samia hasn't played yet tells us much. He was never expected to start this year. Dozier has been decent as a backup.

Agreed. The fact that he hasn't played yet doesn't tell us much. I was trying to say that if he hasn't gotten playing time by the end of the year that the team should not hand him a starting job next year.

6 minutes ago, Krauser said:

I'm not sure how you are evaluating players otherwise.

Watching a lot of games is one way, but I prefer to use a variety of sources as I don't consider any of them, including my own eyes, to be that reliable. My thoughts on Elflein's play last year were synthesized before knowing that PFF was grading him poorly. PFF isn't a primary source of information for me. I read a couple different fan boards which bring a lot of information to my attention, watch a lot of games paying close attention to test hypotheses that I have made, listen to podcasts (mostly Move The Sticks but occasionally others), and read as many "expert" analysts as I can.  I come out of it with Hypotheses that I further test while watching future games. And yes, I rewind somewhat frequently to watch plays in slow motion to try and discern when when wrong on plays.

I have to admit, that I don't watch back plays that worked out to discern who was doing things right that made it work out so I miss giving credit more than I miss noticing mistakes as it relates to my hypotheses. I acknowledge the confirmation bias that causes, but I don't have time to watch every play 4 times in slow motion. I would love it if I had that kind of time, but I do not. I usually watch the game in real time with buddies, then watch it back later rewinding plays of interest and watching those in slow motion. I do not have the all 22 coach's tape so I miss a lot of things out wide and down the field leaving me to concentrate more attention on the pass protection and run blocking that I can see.

As it relates to Pat Elflein, I synthesized a hypothesis that he was terrible early in his rookie year and have had that reinforced over and over again as I have tested that hypothesis watching games. I do see him make good plays some of the time, but I see too many plays where he just isn't up to the challenge. When I measure that against watching other centers (or guards this year) in the league, I am left with a conclusion that Pat Elflein is not a player that the team should rely on as a starter. He is a player that I am happy to have on the team as a backup.

 

[Krauser]

The entire OL looks great here. 

On Cook's TD, Elflein washes recent 1st round pick Johnathan Allen from one hash mark to the other, as Dalvin runs straight through where Allen had been. 

[Krauser]

Another set of data for the question of whether Elflein is any good: 

The play where #55 stumbles as he redirects away from a clean block was one of Elflein's holding calls. Really questionable.

Elflein is dominant here, and basically every one of these runs is keying off his block.

[Uncle Buck]

I don't know how long he would be out after the surgery, but would Osemele be someone worth considering?

 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Uncle Buck

[Torchezim]

18 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

I don't know how long he would be out after the surgery, but would Osemele be someone worth considering?

 

 

If we have the money, I’d rather use it on the line than anywhere else. 
 

I don’t keep up with all of that capology talk but most people here do. Trade Rhodes and sign him? I’d rather have Elflein as a back up than Rhodes as anything. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Torchezim

[SemperFeist]

I think Osemele is just a name people recognize, rather than an upgrade. 

[Krauser]

30 minutes ago, Uncle Buck said:

I don't know how long he would be out after the surgery, but would Osemele be someone worth considering?

Sounds like he’ll be out for the year.

Osemele was great for several years with the Ravens and the Raiders but he struggled last year and was evidently playing hurt this year.

He’s not a great scheme fit for the Vikings zone scheme, more of a power blocker.

He turns 31 before camp opens next summer.

[Krauser]

PFF now rank the Vikings OL 11th in the league: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-8

Quote

11. MINNESOTA VIKINGS

Both of the Vikings’ offensive tackles, Brian O’Neill and Riley Reiff, have earned top-35 overall grades in Weeks 1-8. With 72.0-plus run-blocking and pass-blocking grades, O’Neill ranks tied for 23rd among all qualifying offensive linemen in overall grade (72.6). Coming off a standout performance against the Washington Redskins in Week 8, Reiff has earned a 77.0 pass-blocking grade and the 33rd-ranked overall grade (71.5) among the same group of qualifiers.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Krauser said:

PFF now rank the Vikings OL 11th in the league: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-8

 

I have a suspicious attitude, normally, with statistically grading offensive linemen.  However, the grades coming this past week for Reiff and O'Neill gibe with my eyeball test.  Maybe my eyeball test should be taken with more suspicion as I will be having cataract surgery soon!!

[wcblack34]

There's no question that the offensive line has played much better this year. 

Strangely enough, I think Josh Kline is glue that holds them together. I really didn't expect much from him after his unceremonious departure from Tennessee, but he's been an absolute steal so far.  

[KOTN-93]

Dakota Dozier played really well again after Kline went down last night.

[vikingsrule]

2 hours ago, KOTN-93 said:

Dakota Dozier played really well again after Kline went down last night.

I’m sure we will see him next week against Denver given Kline’s concussion, his second of the year. I wish Dozier would get an opportunity To be the starter at LG but it seems like he’s in the starting lineup often anyway.