turtle28 Posted July 24, 2019 Author Share Posted July 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Woz said: No, they were bad contracts on the face of them. John Wall's contract was bad because his contract by itself swallowed about 40-45% of the Wizard's cap room. That kind of allocation for cap space should only be reserved for a rare superstar (think KD, LeBron, Curry, etc.). John Wall is good, but he is not in that stratosphere. The fact he got hurt makes it that much more horrible. Alex Smith's contract was bad because Washington was paying for one year's worth of stats and ignoring what Smith was for his career and the situation Smith found himself in. There was a next-to-zero chance that he would recreate the numbers he did in 2017. The fact he got hurt (and had his career ended) makes it that much more horrible. Uhh, bull****. I called out Smith's contract at the time. Others called out Wall's contract at the time. Do not try to cover up our in-the-moment evaluations as "in hindsight" just because you thought we were wrong. Fine woz, you're always right. Like I said, if you actually read what I wrote. Some said they were bad contracts at the time, but most didn't. There’s absolutely no way they would have known if Alex could repeat or near repeat 2017 or if he couldn't. Just BC you ”thought” he couldn't doesn't mean that it's true that he couldn't. Same for Wall. And, w/o Alex’s injury we would have gotten more years to see if he could have evolved and done better in Gruden’s offense - especially if we got better WRs - but again, bc of his injury we’ll never know. But hey, you describe it however you what. I'll never proclaim to be as smart as you of to be able to see into the future like you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 33 minutes ago, turtle28 said: There’s absolutely no way they would have known if Alex could repeat or near repeat 2017 or if he couldn't. Just BC you ”thought” he couldn't doesn't mean that it's true that he couldn't. Except we saw what he was like through 10 games before breaking his leg. Those weren't his 2017 numbers. Not even close. And before you make excuses about the wide receivers or running backs or whatever, that's the whole damn point. You and Brice looked at one year's performance in one of the most QB friendly systems in the NFL today with some of the best talent surrounding him and thought "that's his level of play all the time." So, we absolutely could have known because he played here. And played exactly like his career average said he would. 36 minutes ago, turtle28 said: But hey, you describe it however you what. I'll never proclaim to be as smart as you of to be able to see into the future like you. I don't predict the future. I look at trends and averages. If a guy averages 35 catches and 500 yards over his first three seasons with a flat trend line and then breaks out for 70 catches and 1000 yards, I'm going to look askance at those numbers because they are so far outside his norm. Now if a second guy catches 15 balls for 225 yards then 35 for 525 then 50 for 750? I won't be as surprised if he then breaks out for 85 and 1275 because that would be his trend line. Now, Wall was a slightly different case. He was talented, but the contract greatly exceeded his talent. https://thefandc.radio.com/articles/john-walls-contract-just-got-more-expensive Quote That summer Wall, who had two year's remaining on a five-year, $85 million deal he signed in 2013, re-upped for an additional four years on a Designated Veteran Player Extension, also known as the supermax. The deal guaranteed Wall 35 percent of the salary cap when the extension began and would escalate by eight percent in each year following. The deal tied Wall to D.C. for the next six years and made Wall the third max contract player on the Wizards following Bradley Beal and Otto Porter. So, by himself, Wall will take up 35-40% of the cap. Some players could justify that amount of space being taken up. Wall isn't one of them. Here's the top ten 2019-20 cap hits: Stephen Curry - $40,231,758 Chris Paul - $38,506,482 Russell Westbrook - $38,506,482 Kevin Durant - $38,199,000 John Wall - $38,199,000 James Harden - $38,199,000 LeBron James - $37,436,858 Kyle Lowry - $34,996,296 Blake Griffin - $34,449,964 Paul George - $33,005,556 Wall (and Harden's) ranking will rise to 2nd in 2021 and 1st in 2022. That's four years of a top five cap hit. Is Harden worth that? Eh, okay, I can buy that. Wall? No. Do I begrudge either guy for taking the deal offered to them? No. If a team is willing to throw stupid money at you, you take it. But to say that they weren't obviously bad contracts when they were signed is put your head in the sand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 1 hour ago, turtle28 said: Some said they were bad contracts at the time, but most didn't. Are you again talking about Smith in this? If so, wrong again. MOST if not ALMOST ALL (less you and maybe one other?) hated that extension. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 15 minutes ago, Woz said: Now, Wall was a slightly different case. He was talented, but the contract greatly exceeded his talent. John Wall wasn't ever that talented. He puts up bulk stats inefficiently because he was on a bad team and allowed to keep shooting over and over even though he wasn't that good at it. His PER rating (which rates player efficiency and is considered a good measurement for player value) has been pretty consistently ranked in the 40s of all NBA players. His highest PER rating in the past 5 years was in the 2016-17 season, when he ranked 21st in the NBA. He has, and never will be a top 10 player in the NBA. Based on his PER average rank, he's not even a top 30 player in the NBA. Since there are 30 teams in the league I wouldn't consider John Wall to be a "franchise player". Yet he's getting paid like a top 5 talent in the league. Then remember he's coming off a serious injury and all of his talent was based off of athleticism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 4 hours ago, MKnight82 said: John Wall wasn't ever that talented. He puts up bulk stats inefficiently because he was on a bad team and allowed to keep shooting over and over even though he wasn't that good at it. His PER rating (which rates player efficiency and is considered a good measurement for player value) has been pretty consistently ranked in the 40s of all NBA players. His highest PER rating in the past 5 years was in the 2016-17 season, when he ranked 21st in the NBA. He has, and never will be a top 10 player in the NBA. Based on his PER average rank, he's not even a top 30 player in the NBA. Since there are 30 teams in the league I wouldn't consider John Wall to be a "franchise player". Yet he's getting paid like a top 5 talent in the league. Then remember he's coming off a serious injury and all of his talent was based off of athleticism. Oh come on dude. Wall was never that talented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 24 minutes ago, lavar703 said: Oh come on dude. Wall was never that talented? Define talented. He was never a “franchise player” imo. He has never been a top 30 player in the nba. He’s not a star, he is at best the 2nd best player on a contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 24, 2019 Share Posted July 24, 2019 20 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Define talented. He was never a “franchise player” imo. He has never been a top 30 player in the nba. He’s not a star, he is at best the 2nd best player on a contender. That's a opinion, not a fact. He has been named to All Star teams and a All NBA Team to show facts he was worth being paid like the best Player on a team. Your a straight up hater and I don't know why and really dont care, but Imma call it how I see it. Your hating on Wall. If mother****ing Kirk Cousins can get 84 million guaranteed in his league without winning a Playoff game or Must Win for sure multi All Star, All NBA member, and the Wizards best player over the last 5 to 6 seasons John Wall can get his money in his league. To say John Wall is not a top 30 player when healthy is ridiculous. Wall is the best PG when it comes to offense and defense combined IMO. He can get to the rim at will, block shots, get steals, and has improved his outside shooting. He makes shots when needed. Last year at home against LeBron what did Wall do? Let King James know who house he was visiting. Wall has hit game winners in playoff games as well. So as said your words are opinions not facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 43 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: That's a opinion, not a fact. Yes it is my opinion, but his PER stats support my opinion. 44 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: He has been named to All Star teams and a All NBA Team to show facts he was worth being paid like the best Player on a team. Making the All Star team in the East isn't that big of an accomplishment. And his ALL NBA nod happened because he was putting up bulk stats. In his all nba season he was ranked 21st in the NBA in PER. http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2017 46 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Your a straight up hater and I don't know why and really dont care, but Imma call it how I see it No I have a different opinion than yours and your response to that seems to be weak name calling. 47 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: If mother****ing Kirk Cousins can get 84 million guaranteed in his league without winning a Playoff game or Must Win for sure multi All Star, All NBA member, and the Wizards best player over the last 5 to 6 seasons John Wall can get his money in his league. Kirk Cousins is actually a good comparison for John Wall. Good but not great player that is seriously overpaid. Not good enough to win a championship. 48 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: To say John Wall is not a top 30 player when healthy is ridiculous. 49th in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2018 21st in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2017 41st in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2016 43rd in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2015 35th in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2014 I stand by my opinion. Even when healthy John Wall is not a top 30 player in the NBA. PER stats back that up. 51 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Wall is the best PG when it comes to offense and defense combined IMO. This is a ridiculous statement IMO. Curry, Lillard, Irving, Westbrook, and Paul are all easily better and you could probably throw in Ben Simmons to that list. And before you complain PER and most other metrics are going to support that they are all better. 56 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: So as said your words are opinions not facts. My opinion is backed by a pretty widely used metric (PER) to rank nba talent though. My opinion seems to have more relevant "facts" than yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 1 hour ago, MKnight82 said: Yes it is my opinion, but his PER stats support my opinion. Making the All Star team in the East isn't that big of an accomplishment. And his ALL NBA nod happened because he was putting up bulk stats. In his all nba season he was ranked 21st in the NBA in PER. http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2017 No I have a different opinion than yours and your response to that seems to be weak name calling. Kirk Cousins is actually a good comparison for John Wall. Good but not great player that is seriously overpaid. Not good enough to win a championship. 49th in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2018 21st in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2017 41st in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2016 43rd in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2015 35th in PER: http://insider.espn.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/year/2014 I stand by my opinion. Even when healthy John Wall is not a top 30 player in the NBA. PER stats back that up. This is a ridiculous statement IMO. Curry, Lillard, Irving, Westbrook, and Paul are all easily better and you could probably throw in Ben Simmons to that list. And before you complain PER and most other metrics are going to support that they are all better. My opinion is backed by a pretty widely used metric (PER) to rank nba talent though. My opinion seems to have more relevant "facts" than yours. Wall has gotten the Wizards a win in the Playoffs, let's see when Cousins can do that for his team. As said his accomplishments speak for themselves. His accomplishments show #Facts that he earned his contract. The player who shouldn't have gotten a Max deal was Porter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Wall has gotten the Wizards a win in the Playoffs, let's see when Cousins can do that for his team. As said his accomplishments speak for themselves. His accomplishments show #Facts that he earned his contract. The player who shouldn't have gotten a Max deal was Porter! Wall deserved a max not a supermax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 26 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: Wall deserved a max not a supermax. Just like Cousins deserved maybe 50 million guaranteed, not 84. It's in Gods hand now! Stop whinning about another Mans money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Just like Cousins deserved maybe 50 million guaranteed, not 84. It's in Gods hand now! Stop whinning about another Mans money. I love how out of my very thorough post detailing stats showing Walls inefficient play the only thing you took from that was some petty crap about Kirk Cousins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naptownskinsfan Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: I love how out of my very thorough post detailing stats showing Walls inefficient play the only thing you took from that was some petty crap about Kirk Cousins. For some folks, it seems talking about the past is taboo. But that's why I join forums like this. It's not just to discuss the games, but also be critical of the team and not just show blind homerism. Stuff in the past is always on the table, because it also indicates what situations the team is going through (i.e. a version of cap hell with Alex Smith) or the history of how a team spends money (i.e. wisely or not wisely, ignoring a certain position, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, MKnight82 said: I love how out of my very thorough post detailing stats showing Walls inefficient play the only thing you took from that was some petty crap about Kirk Cousins. Just like Walls NBA Allstar and NBA All Team accomplishments seem to get forgotten when giving those stats. These things played a huge part in Wall getting the deal he got. WHY AREN'T YOU GIVING WALL CREDIT FOR THESE ACCOMPLISHMENTS? As well as Wall ability to play big in big games including playoffs. Your being petty about Walls contract, I'm being petty about Cousin's! Yet you would defend Cousins play and contract. Edited July 25, 2019 by Skins212689 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKnight82 Posted July 25, 2019 Share Posted July 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, naptownskinsfan said: For some folks, it seems talking about the past is taboo. But that's why I join forums like this. It's not just to discuss the games, but also be critical of the team and not just show blind homerism. Stuff in the past is always on the table, because it also indicates what situations the team is going through (i.e. a version of cap hell with Alex Smith) or the history of how a team spends money (i.e. wisely or not wisely, ignoring a certain position, etc.) I’m confused by your post. This is the Wizards thread. I was talking about John Wall and that other poster tried to derail the thread but throwing out pointless Kirk Cousins crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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