Off-Topic: The Washington Wizards Thread

[Skinsin2013]

I don't understand the desire to trade Porter. I'd much rather have Beal/Porter/??? or Wall/Porter/??? then Beal/Wall/???

No matter how you slice, that third player isn't getting the shots in this two-guard ball dominant system, which isn't going to work. These zebras simply aren't ready to change their stripes.

Note that the Celtics don't have a clear superstar... and I've already documented how the Warriors allow their third to shoot more shots than the Wiz do. And that's with Curry and Durant who are just a bit better than Beal and Wall. The other two remaining teams have one of the two best players of all time (ball dominant) and the league's MVP paired with (I think) the league's best true PG in Chris Paul. Again, I'm taking Harden and Paul over Beal and Wall all day.

So we either stick with two guys who have been at it for six years together... and again, Wall's knees and doubling contract.

Or we move one of those guys, have some floor spacing, and build around those two. And again, just like with this proposed Porter trade, you get back assets for Beal or Wall.

I'd trade Wall if the deal was right. He's not a leader (was asked what he was working on while wearing his shades at the Mystics game... 'Adidas stuff and just working out, losing weight, getting cut' was his half-hearted response. Sweeet............. I have plenty more examples if needed).... he's oft-injured... and his doubling contract.

The only shade I'll throw at Otto is his hip... that concerns me. Other than that, if he gets the shots (without heisting em) he'll score more... just like he did with Wall out.

In the draft, we need a mobile big (PF or C)... only issue is we're probably looking a a project where we draft.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Skinsin2013

[turtle28]

The issue with Porter is that he mostly has to have Wall/Sato or Beal create the open shot for him. I’m a huge Otto fan but out of him, Beal and Wall; Porter is clearly the one who’s overpaid based off his production. 

At best, Porter is a 20 point scorer even if he’s the 2nd option on any team. That’s Wall and Beal at their worst! And Wall averages around or over 10 assists a game which means he’s responsible for 20 to 25 more points a game than his 23 to 27 ppg if he’s healthy.

In the playoffs in each of the last two years Wall has averaged 26 and 27 points per game, he’s going nowhere!

You say Wall isn’t a good leader - even though you really don’t know bc none of us are in the lockeroom - but he’s the only one on the team trying to lead.

I don’t see Beal leading and Porter never even opens his mouth, so we know he’s not a leader.

It seems to me the reason @Skinsin2013 goes after Wall is for the same reason he goes after Ovechkin, they’re easy targets because they are the best players on their teams and you expect them to carry the team more than they do. 

I see it the other way around, Wall and Ovy do all they can and are extremely productive but it’s the other players around them who aren’t consistent enough. The failure of the supporting casts to be consistent is why the Wizards haven’t gotten further in the playoffs and why the Caps usually don’t go past the second round and why they likely won’t win a Stanley Cup this year either.

Blaming Wall because Porter and Beal miss a ton of open looks that he creates for them and Porter saw his scoring average drop from 14 points in the regular season to only 10 in the post season, just doesn’t pass the smell test.

Let’s not forget that Beal crumbles most of the time in the fourth quarter while Wall carries the team to victories. In game 3 vs the Raptors, Beal fouled out and Wall went on a tear and carried the team to a victory.

There’s no doubt in my mind that if the Wizards plan on drastically getting better they should move Beal or Porter for a star or super star player. 

Porter for Boggie Cousins in a sign and trade is still something I’ve wanted to see happen for 3 or 4 years and still now if the Wizards aren’t in the running to get Kawhai Leonard.

Wall isn’t going anywhere, even suggesting he is frankly ridiculous. Wall is not only the Wizards best player but he’s the teams best draw, he’s the cash cow for Leonsis. The reason people come to see the Wizards play is mostly because of John Wall, not Beal and certainly not Otto Porter. Ted Leonsis is a great business man, he’s not going to trade away the only player he has who plays near a super star level and puts butts in the seats.

Lastly, no one is trying to say that Wall & Beal are a better duo than any of those combos you mentioned, but let’s not forget that those teams again have better supporting casts than Wall and Beal have. You’re putting everything on the top guy, but it’s more the guys around him who haven’t lived up to their potentially - here’s looking at you Otto & Beal in the 4th quarter of almost every game.

Then, there’s also the fact that Harden/Paul & Curry/KD are older than Wall/Beal. Wall will only be 28 when the season starts in 2018 and Beal will only be 25. They have more room to grow as a duo where the guys you mentioned are in their prime now. Beal is just entering his prime and Wall just entered his a few years ago.

Edited May 21, 2018 by turtle28

[Skinsin2013]

31 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

@Skinsin2013

 

Blaming Wall because Porter and Beal miss a ton of open looks that he creates for them and Porter saw his scoring average drop from 14 points in the regular season to only 10 in the post season, just doesn’t pass the smell test.

 

That's a head scratcher. Porter is one of the best shooters in the league. And, you yourself, quoted me earlier noting that Porter's shooting % went UP without Wall in the lineup. So where in the hecht do you come up with something like this... and I don't think it's the first time you've written it either.

Production is impacted by how much one shoots. It's that simple. Wall isn't a good shooter. He just shoots a lot... as in too much.

And I go after Wall for lots of reasons... all of which I've laid out a few times now.

But you stick to a simplified, convenient, and oh yes, completely made up reason.

Ovi spent at least half of his career scoring lots of goals (sweet), not playing a two-way game (darn), blowing through coaches (Fat-F'd Boudreau), and flying back to Russia as quickly as he could in the off-season... usually some time in April. In other words, he wasted half his career playing a style of hockey that was individually rewarding... but not so much for the team.

[Skinsin2013]

39 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Porter for Boggie Cousins in a sign and trade is still something I’ve wanted to see happen for 3 or 4 years and still now if the Wizards aren’t in the running to get Kawhai Leonard.

Wall isn’t going anywhere, even suggesting he is frankly ridiculous. Wall is not only the Wizards best player but he’s the teams best draw, he’s the cash cow for Leonsis. The reason people come to see the Wizards play is mostly because of John Wall, not Beal and certainly not Otto Porter. Ted Leonsis is a great business man, he’s not going to trade away the only player he has who plays near a super star level and puts butts in the seats.

Whenever I see the hypothetical "go get Boogie" comments, I laugh. Boogie is a disaster... Wall and Boogie together would be an abomination. Both take plays off, aren't very good defensively, and are knuckleheads. But, hey, they'd lead the league in something... techs.... and probably cause a few coaches to quit along the way.

You're right about Ted not trading away "stars because they put butts in seats. But are you really using that as justification? Butts in seats over winning??? I hope not.

And Ted has shown time and time again that he's a loser of an owner. What are we a half-dozen five year plans in to his era? More?

[turtle28]

Wall wins, this franchise has won more with Wall than it has at any other time except in the late 70s. So, to say it’s just about butts in the seats is not accurate. It’s about Wall’s star power and that the team has won with him and Beal as their top 2 players.

I’ve always thought that Wall is the only player who could get Boogie to act  somewhat in control because Boogie did that when playing with Wall at Kentucky. I want Boggie because he’s an athletic stretch 5 and if Boggie is on a team that is winning he’ll be much more focused and less of a knucklehead for sure just like he was this year in New Orleans.

Wall isn’t a knucklehead, you’re distain for him is frankly unbearable, especially considering your favorite player on the Wizards is the one who doesn’t create his own shot - passes on many open shots - and is grossly overpaid. I like Porter as a player and he seems like a great guy but if a player is making $26 million a year and is only averaging 14 points a game and 10 points a game in the playoffs that’s a huge huge problem!

The reason Porter doesn’t score more is because he doesn’t create his own shot, period! That’s his fault, not Wall or Beal’s. Im not just making that up, it’s a fact. The reason he scored more when Wall was out was because he was the teams second option behind Beal so he got plays called for him and yes, he got more shots but if a player has to rely on others to create offense and shots for him then he’s never going to be the all-star caliber players that Wall and Beal are.

Frankly, I have to admit that I was wrong last year when I said the Wizards had to keep Porter and give him the max. I argued with so many people on twitter about that including J.Michael who used to be the Wizards insider for NBCSportsWashington. If the Wizards had let Porter walk, re-signed Bojan Bogdanovic and then had $15 million more in cap space to sign better back up guards for Wall and Beal, they would have been better off than they are now stuck paying a good player elite/max money.

You also aren’t looking at facts when you say Wall isn’t a good shooter. Wall used to be a bad jump shooter but over the last few years he’s greatly improved his jump shot and his 3-point shot.

The last few years Wall has been a 42 to 45% shooter from the field. From inside the arch he’s been a 44 to 48% shooter and last season he was a 37% 3-point shooter.

So, the narrative that he’s not a good shooter is an old narrative that just isn’t true anymore.

Porter is certainly more efficient but it really doesn’t matter much because he can’t create his own shot and I’m beginning to wonder if he ever will be that kind of player because while he’s a  great jump shooter, he doesn’t have a good handle and isn’t particularly athletic. He doesn’t have much quickness to take players off the bounce or the ability to jump over them when he’s driving to hole. He’s a great jump shooter but limited athletically just like Markieff Morris.

There are very few players who never take a play off, again, the arguments against Wall from you always seem to be that he isn’t perfect. Well hell, no one is perfect but Wall is by far the teams best player and they are worse when he’s not on the floor except for a short stretch in February which was an anomaly, not the norm.

The Wizards are on their 2nd 5-year build/rebuild since Ted has been their owner. Their 1st was with Arenas, Jamison and Butler and their 2nd is with Wall, Beal and Porter. So, you guessed wrong on that too.

Edited May 21, 2018 by turtle28

[Woz]

2 hours ago, Skinsin2013 said:

I don't understand the desire to trade Porter. I'd much rather have Beal/Porter/??? or Wall/Porter/??? then Beal/Wall/???

No matter how you slice, that third player isn't getting the shots in this two-guard ball dominant system, which isn't going to work. These zebras simply aren't ready to change their stripes.

My take: a team could make a play for Porter on the grounds that he's the "third wheel." They aren't going to make a deal for Beal (due to the injury history and inconsistency) and they cannot make a move for Wall due to the super max contract.

Yes, the optimal solution would be for the Wizards to trade Beal and keep Wall & Porter, but I don't see that as a viable possibility.

2 hours ago, Skinsin2013 said:

Note that the Celtics don't have a clear superstar...

They absolutely do. It's just that he sits on the sidelines the entire game and wears a suit and plans out plays instead of executing them.

2 hours ago, Skinsin2013 said:

and I've already documented how the Warriors allow their third to shoot more shots than the Wiz do.

The Warriors also have a superstar on the sidelines.

Kerr and Stevens are arguably the best young coaches in the league (Popovich is still the best, but he's probably close to the end of his career).

2 hours ago, Skinsin2013 said:

Or we move one of those guys, have some floor spacing, and build around those two. And again, just like with this proposed Porter trade, you get back assets for Beal or Wall.

While you are correct, the most "moveable" guy is Porter. Regardless of who is shipped out, if the Wizards are serious about contending, one of those three probably has to be traded.

2 hours ago, Skinsin2013 said:

In the draft, we need a mobile big (PF or C)... only issue is we're probably looking a a project where we draft.

Which is why if the Indiana deal (again, just a fan suggestion) ever came to fruition, you take it so you could potentially move up to get that mobile big.

[turtle28]

16 minutes ago, Woz said:

My take: a team could make a play for Porter on the grounds that he's the "third wheel." They aren't going to make a deal for Beal (due to the injury history and inconsistency) and they cannot make a move for Wall due to the super max contract.

Yes, the optimal solution would be for the Wizards to trade Beal and keep Wall & Porter, but I don't see that as a viable possibility.

They absolutely do. It's just that he sits on the sidelines the entire game and wears a suit and plans out plays instead of executing them.

The Warriors also have a superstar on the sidelines.

Kerr and Stevens are arguably the best young coaches in the league (Popovich is still the best, but he's probably close to the end of his career).

While you are correct, the most "moveable" guy is Porter. Regardless of who is shipped out, if the Wizards are serious about contending, one of those three probably has to be traded.

Which is why if the Indiana deal (again, just a fan suggestion) ever came to fruition, you take it so you could potentially move up to get that mobile big.

The Wizards don’t have to move up to get a big, Robert Williams should I be available at 15, of course if they're affraid he won’t be, they should move up 5 spots or so to take him or another big around 10.

I think the easiest player for the Wizards to trade is Beal but it’s unlikely that they do it. Beal plays up to his contract value - unlike Porter - and Beal is just entering his prime as a 23 point scorer, something Porter will never be. Beal’s injury issues are 3 years removed, so that’s not a current issue.

So, I think if the Wizards are going to get a great PF or C that Beal is the most attractive piece they have to move but seeing that the Wizards are unlikely to move him then, if they’re really going to improve the roster it’s going to have to be Porter that they move for Leonard, Cousins or maybe Paul George if that’s still an option.

[Skinsin2013]

@Woz I agree with most of what you said. Basically, the Wiz would be better if they kept Porter and traded one of the other two. But injuries for Beal... and Wall isn't worth a supermax... hence teams wouldn't trade for him. I don't know if I fully agree with the Beal injury assessment. He did just play a full season... and he probably has the most room for growth for all three. I think he's tradeable. But it probably wouldn't be smart to trade him.

The coach comparisons is valid. I like Brooks. His assessment is right on point sometimes. But I'm not sure if 1) he hasn't gotten the team to buy in to "team basketball"; or 2) if he's saying one thing and still riding Beal and Wall. I used to lean toward #1... but seeing the hero ball late in games (consistently) has me thinking it's #2. I'm really just not sure. But you're correct... he's no Stevens... Kerr is okay... the Warriors rolled without him.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Skinsin2013

[Skinsin2013]

12 hours ago, turtle28 said:

The Wizards don’t have to move up to get a big, Robert Williams should I be available at 15, of course if they're affraid he won’t be, they should move up 5 spots or so to take him or another big around 10.

I think the easiest player for the Wizards to trade is Beal but it’s unlikely that they do it. Beal plays up to his contract value - unlike Porter - and Beal is just entering his prime as a 23 point scorer, something Porter will never be. Beal’s injury issues are 3 years removed, so that’s not a current issue.

So, I think if the Wizards are going to get a great PF or C that Beal is the most attractive piece they have to move but seeing that the Wizards are unlikely to move him then, if they’re really going to improve the roster it’s going to have to be Porter that they move for Leonard, Cousins or maybe Paul George if that’s still an option.

George vs Porter.... George takes 6 more shots to score 7 more points. Otto shoots 7% higher than George... grabs more boards while playing fewer minutes. 1 less assist for Porter... but 2 fewer TOs per game too.

Who is giving up their shots (Beal or Wall) so George can shoot at a worse clip than Otto? Otto is also the better defender and is three years younger. How exactly would having a worse volume shooter make the Wizards better?

https://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=203490&VsPlayerID=202331

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203490&VsPlayerID=202331

Edited May 21, 2018 by Skinsin2013

[turtle28]

49 minutes ago, Skinsin2013 said:

George vs Porter.... George takes 6 more shots to score 7 more points. Otto shoots 7% higher than George... grabs more boards while playing fewer minutes. 1 less assist for Porter... but 2 fewer TOs per game too.

Who is giving up their shots (Beal or Wall) so George can shoot at a worse clip than Otto? Otto is also the better defender and is three years younger. How exactly would having a worse volume shooter make the Wizards better?

https://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=203490&VsPlayerID=202331

https://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203490&VsPlayerID=202331

Paul George will take more shots when he has the opportunity and can create offense for himself. You’re still not comprehending that Porter’s main problem on offense is that he rarely creates his own shot and struggles to do so. He basically plays like a Kyle Korver type spot up shooter and doesn’t do anything to create his own shot off the bounce. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with Porter and the way he plays, but if that’s your 3rd best player and he’s making $26 million for 14 ppg, that’s an issue and it’s keeping the team from being better.

If the team is going to improve, if has to move Porter or Beal for a player who is more aggressive than Porter on offense and more consistent than Beal in the 4th Quarter. Like Woz said, he’d do the Pacers deal for Porter bc it would get us a young starting center - who’s better than our centers - Bogdanovic to replace Porter’s offensive production, TJ Leaf to develop as a young PF and another draft pick to develop as a bench player.

Paul George wouldn’t be a problem creating his own shot. If George can average 22 ppg playing with the biggest ball hog in the NBA - Russell Westbrook - then he can sure do the same in DC playing with a pass first PG like Wall.

Also, George is an elite defender just like Kawhai Leonard - something that the Wizards don’t have - so when the Wizards play the top NBA teams George would play the opposing teams best wing player or their PF if that’s their best player.

So, just like if they acquired Leonard, the Wizards could play more small ball than they already do. Like MKnight mentioned, I too wish that Porter could be our starting PF but with Porter only being 200 pounds that’s not an option because he’d get abused on the block.

Leonard is 230 pounds and George is 220 pounds so if Brooks wanted to, he could make them the starting PF and have Kieff start at center - or play more center - if they wanted to play more small ball.

Edited May 21, 2018 by turtle28

[MKnight82]

15 hours ago, turtle28 said:

they are now stuck paying a good player elite/max money.

Isn't this what they're doing with Wall, except they're paying his super elite max money?

[turtle28]

These are Paul George’s accomplishments:

 

5× NBA All-Star (2013, 2014, 2016–2018) 3× All-NBA Third Team (2013, 2014, 2016) NBA All-Defensive First Team (2014) 2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013, 2016) NBA Most Improved Player (2013)

To suggest that Porter is a better defender or player is laughable. George also led the Pacers to an Eastern Conference Finals appearance in 2014 after they beat the Wizards in game 6 of the second round in John Wall & Beal’s first playoff appearance before Trevor Ariza left the following free agency for Houston.

[turtle28]

4 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Isn't this what they're doing with Wall, except they're paying his super elite max money?

Wall is worth the $ though, he’s one of the best PGs in the NBA and a perennial All-Star. I don’t think Porter will ever get to that level.

[MKnight82]

Just now, turtle28 said:

Wall is worth the $ though, he’s one of the best PGs in the NBA and a perennial All-Star. I don’t think Porter will ever get to that level.

Wall is absolutely not worth $40 mil per season.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, Skinsin2013 said:

@Woz I agree with most of what you said. Basically, the Wiz would be better if they kept Porter and traded one of the other two. But injuries for Beal... and Wall isn't worth a supermax... hence teams wouldn't trade for him. I don't know if I fully agree with the Beal injury assessment. He did just play a full season... and he probably has the most room for growth for all three. I think he's tradeable. But it probably wouldn't be smart to trade him.

The coach comparisons is valid. I like Brooks. His assessment is right on point sometimes. But I'm not sure if 1) he hasn't gotten the team to buy in to "team basketball"; or 2) if he's saying one thing and still riding Beal and Wall. I used to lean toward #1... but seeing the hero ball late in games (consistently) has me thinking it's #2. I'm really just not sure. But you're correct... he's no Stevens... Kerr is okay... the Warriors rolled without him.

Yeah, like I said in my response to @Woz about Beal’s injury concerns, that was actually 3 and 4 years ago.

Beal didn’t miss one game last season out of 82 regular season games and 6 playoff games. Two seasons ago Beal only missed 5 games including a possible 82 regular season and I think 13 playoff games. 

I think that Scott Brooks wants the ball in Wall and/or Beal’s hands late in games, as any head coach would. They are their best two players and the only players they have that can consistently create their own shots. So yeah, you want them to have the ball in their hands late in games. This will always be the case with a teams best players. 

When Brooks was in OKC, he did the same thing with Westbrook and KD.