Off-Topic: The Washington Wizards Thread

[e16bball]

15 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

The thing is though that NBA team value cap space like NFL franchises value draft picks.  For the Wizards to get cap relief they would literally have to pay someone to take their bad contracts.  

The only way Gortat is trad-able is if you find a team that could utilize him for one year but also values the fact that he's on an expiring deal (freeing up cap space next year).  Gortat is a lumbering dinosaur of a Center in the modern NBA, there aren't going to be many teams that find him useful as a player.  Also, the few teams that do have cap space (like 80% of the league is over the cap) are mostly near the top of this draft class, a class that is very strong in bigs.  

You’re right that Gortat’s trade value is almost entirely based on the fact that he’s an expiring contract — you’re actually right about everything in this post — but your tone kinda makes it sound like it’s a longshot that they could move him. Which I don’t think it is. A substantial expiring contract like his would have a lot of value to a team that’s close to having max cap room next summer (or even the summer after that).

One option would swap him for a better player whose contract is in the way of his team making a major upgrade. An example of that might be Mason Plumlee, whose contract ($14M in 2019) might stop the Nuggets from having max cap space after doing a Jokic extension but before extending Murray. A roster with Murray, Harris, Millsap, and Jokic might be pretty dangerous if they could land a max or near-max FA to play on the wing to complete their starting 5. But they probably can’t do that with Plumlee eating up that cap space. Even though they’d only be shedding one extra year of committed money, it would have substantial value if it allows them the ability to land the missing piece to go from good to possible contender.

The other option would be to take back a really bad contract and get another asset for assuming that bad deal. The Wizards are totally capped out for the future anyway — they could essentially try to steer into the skid and get a useful asset or in return for making their bad cap situation even worse. There are lots of bad long contracts out there, of course, but a couple I’d have my eye on would be James Johnson (MIA), Gorgui Dieng (MIN), Norman Powell (TOR), or Cody Zeller (CHA). You could swap their contracts for Gortat’s and give them tremendous cap relief. That would be worth something to any of those teams. The dream scenario for me would be giving up Gortat and maybe a little other filler, taking James Johnson off Miami’s hands (immediately deleting 2/$31M), and getting them to throw in Bam Adebayo. A stretch, but Miami is a team that very legitimately competes for the top FAs — so cap space means a ton to them.

The 3rd option, which is one I’ve been thinking about a lot, would be to include Gortat-for-bad-contract as one piece of a larger deal. The one I’ve been looking at there is Patty Mills (SAS). His contract is terrible. He’s still owed something like 3/$35M, which is just untenable for a 30-year-old undersized PG who went in the tank in starters’ minutes last season. I would be hoping to do some version of Gortat, Otto, and Sato for Kawhi and Mills. They probably can do better elsewhere, but this option would give them some major cap relief and can you think of a more Spurs-esque trio of players than a pure 3-and-D SF, a smart and sweet shooting tall Euro PG, and a skilled but grizzled screen-machine big man? That would be a pretty classic Spurs package.

Anyway, just some brain-storming there. Point being, I think there are some options out there for moving a good-sized expiring deal that’s attached to a still somewhat useful player.

 

 

[MKnight82]

30 minutes ago, e16bball said:

You’re right that Gortat’s trade value is almost entirely based on the fact that he’s an expiring contract — you’re actually right about everything in this post — but your tone kinda makes it sound like it’s a longshot that they could move him. Which I don’t think it is. A substantial expiring contract like his would have a lot of value to a team that’s close to having max cap room next summer (or even the summer after that).

One option would swap him for a better player whose contract is in the way of his team making a major upgrade. An example of that might be Mason Plumlee, whose contract ($14M in 2019) might stop the Nuggets from having max cap space after doing a Jokic extension but before extending Murray. A roster with Murray, Harris, Millsap, and Jokic might be pretty dangerous if they could land a max or near-max FA to play on the wing to complete their starting 5. But they probably can’t do that with Plumlee eating up that cap space. Even though they’d only be shedding one extra year of committed money, it would have substantial value if it allows them the ability to land the missing piece to go from good to possible contender.

The other option would be to take back a really bad contract and get another asset for assuming that bad deal. The Wizards are totally capped out for the future anyway — they could essentially try to steer into the skid and get a useful asset or in return for making their bad cap situation even worse. There are lots of bad long contracts out there, of course, but a couple I’d have my eye on would be James Johnson (MIA), Gorgui Dieng (MIN), Norman Powell (TOR), or Cody Zeller (CHA). You could swap their contracts for Gortat’s and give them tremendous cap relief. That would be worth something to any of those teams. The dream scenario for me would be giving up Gortat and maybe a little other filler, taking James Johnson off Miami’s hands (immediately deleting 2/$31M), and getting them to throw in Bam Adebayo. A stretch, but Miami is a team that very legitimately competes for the top FAs — so cap space means a ton to them.

The 3rd option, which is one I’ve been thinking about a lot, would be to include Gortat-for-bad-contract as one piece of a larger deal. The one I’ve been looking at there is Patty Mills (SAS). His contract is terrible. He’s still owed something like 3/$35M, which is just untenable for a 30-year-old undersized PG who went in the tank in starters’ minutes last season. I would be hoping to do some version of Gortat, Otto, and Sato for Kawhi and Mills. They probably can do better elsewhere, but this option would give them some major cap relief and can you think of a more Spurs-esque trio of players than a pure 3-and-D SF, a smart and sweet shooting tall Euro PG, and a skilled but grizzled screen-machine big man? That would be a pretty classic Spurs package.

Anyway, just some brain-storming there. Point being, I think there are some options out there for moving a good-sized expiring deal that’s attached to a still somewhat useful player.

 

 

That's because his only value, like you've stated, is by taking on more money.  I don't think the Wizards want to do that.  A lot of the draft rumors have been the Wizards looking at using their first to have someone take on one of their bad contracts, so if that is the case they don't seem willing to take on more money.

Edited June 21, 2018 by MKnight82

[e16bball]

Of course, all the news out there seems to indicate that they’re looking to shed money, not take more on. 

The story about attaching #15 to an expiring deal is really puzzling to me. I just don’t understand the plan. They aren’t going to get meaningfully below the cap regardless — even if they somehow convinced someone to take on ALL their expiring contracts (about $34M worth) and give nothing back, they’d still only have like $11M in cap space. And that’s never going to happen, not for the 15th pick. 

I guess they could be trying to make sure they stay under the apron, which would open up the higher MLE and the ability to receive sign and trade players. But that’s a pretty silly, classic Wizards move — trade a mid-1st round pick you can use to take a shot on a young player with upside (and risk) in order to give yourself more ability to spend money on mediocre veterans with NBA experience. 

My big concern is that since I’m having a hard time understanding how this move would make the team better, I’m feeling a whole lot like the goal is just to save money by getting out of the luxury tax. Which would have double benefits financially because it would spare them from being classified as repeaters in 2019-20 when the Wall super-max kicks in. 

If they do this move, in conjunction with the Trotz thing, that would be some pretty disappointing penny-pinching by Leonsis. Yes, I know it would be more like millions-pinching, but damn — you’re either in or you’re out. If you’re gonna pass on a rookie who could potentially help put the team over the top, just to save money, why are you shelling out $125M for a generally competitive team in the first place? This team is teetering on the brink of remaining in the “still has a chance to compete with this group” category, they just can’t afford to pass up any needed young talent. Especially not if it’s just to save ownership some money. 

[e16bball]

25 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

That's because his only value, like you've stated, is by taking on more money.  I don't think the Wizards want to do that.  A lot of the draft rumors have been the Wizards looking at using their first to have someone take on one of their bad contracts, so if that is the case they don't seem willing to take on more money.

Spot on, you hit the exact point of my follow-up post here. 

Still, I would say that it’s only a longshot by their choice — it’s a very moveable deal if your goal is to improve an already good team, not to improve your bottom line. 

[MKnight82]

3 minutes ago, e16bball said:

Of course, all the news out there seems to indicate that they’re looking to shed money, not take more on. 

The story about attaching #15 to an expiring deal is really puzzling to me. I just don’t understand the plan. They aren’t going to get meaningfully below the cap regardless — even if they somehow convinced someone to take on ALL their expiring contracts (about $34M worth) and give nothing back, they’d still only have like $11M in cap space. And that’s never going to happen, not for the 15th pick. 

I guess they could be trying to make sure they stay under the apron, which would open up the higher MLE and the ability to receive sign and trade players. But that’s a pretty silly, classic Wizards move — trade a mid-1st round pick you can use to take a shot on a young player with upside (and risk) in order to give yourself more ability to spend money on mediocre veterans with NBA experience. 

My big concern is that since I’m having a hard time understanding how this move would make the team better, I’m feeling a whole lot like the goal is just to save money by getting out of the luxury tax. Which would have double benefits financially because it would spare them from being classified as repeaters in 2019-20 when the Wall super-max kicks in. 

If they do this move, in conjunction with the Trotz thing, that would be some pretty disappointing penny-pinching by Leonsis. Yes, I know it would be more like millions-pinching, but damn — you’re either in or you’re out. If you’re gonna pass on a rookie who could potentially help put the team over the top, just to save money, why are you shelling out $125M for a generally competitive team in the first place? This team is teetering on the brink of remaining in the “still has a chance to compete with this group” category, they just can’t afford to pass up any needed young talent. Especially not if it’s just to save ownership some money. 

They're trying to avoid the repeater luxury tax threshold.  Gortat's salary is not worth dumping a first round pick to get rid of, so the only thing that makes sense to me is they're trying to get someone to take on Mahinmi's contract.  

If they can dump Mahinmi, I think a sign and trade for Demarcus Cousins could be in play.  Send the Pelicans Gortat, Oubre, and some future picks for Cousins.  

[e16bball]

I will say, though — I’m not particularly enthused by many of the available draft options either. 

Robert Williams is my top choice. Like turtle, I’ve been on him for a while. Think he’s just a perfect fit for what we need. If he was a couple inches taller, I’d even consider moving up a bit to get him. 

Beyond him, though — I just don’t know. I like Mikal Bridges, but he won’t be there. And even if he was, he’s basically Otto II. I think Kevin Knox can play, but doubt he’ll be there either. Something about Miles Bridges just rubs me the wrong way but he’s a hell of an athlete. I’m not a huge Lonnie Walker fan (sorry Jeezy) but I have to say that Zhaire Smith is growing on me as an option at the 2. He’s got some shades of Donovan Mitchell in him. And I’ve basically never even seen Mitchell Robinson play, but his profile intrigues me as a potential rim-runner and rim-protector.

But anyway, I do see why they’d be a little interested in moving this pick — other than Williams, who may well be gone, there’s really no perfect (or even “very good”) value/fit that I see who is likely to be available at their pick. And in a vacuum, it might be an okay option to move the pick. But they’re not in a vacuum, they’re in a scenario where they’ve opted entirely out of 3 of the last 4 drafts and now desperately need an influx of young, affordable talent. They need to keep both of these picks, big time.  

 

[e16bball]

1 hour ago, MKnight82 said:

They're trying to avoid the repeater luxury tax threshold.  Gortat's salary is not worth dumping a first round pick to get rid of, so the only thing that makes sense to me is they're trying to get someone to take on Mahinmi's contract.  

If they can dump Mahinmi, I think a sign and trade for Demarcus Cousins could be in play.  Send the Pelicans Gortat, Oubre, and some future picks for Cousins.  

I don’t like Cousins and I think he's a losing type of player, but I would do that trade all day long. His talent is outrageous, I’ll put up with the rest of the BS if that’s the cost to land him.

But what if they said no thanks to Oubre, it’s gotta be Otto?

Edited June 21, 2018 by e16bball

[MKnight82]

7 minutes ago, e16bball said:

I don’t like Cousins and I think he's a losing type of player, but I would do that trade all day long. His talent is outrageous, I’ll put up with the rest of the BS if that’s the cost to land him.

But what if they said no thanks to Oubre, it’s gotta be Otto?

Teams usually get lower than market value in a sign and trade.  Gortat gives the Pelicans a big that can save Davis from having to play heavy minutes at the 5 during the regular season (and then cap relief after the season) and Oubre gives them another wing.  Throw in a future first and maybe a second and I think that gets it done.  

The Pelicans only gave up Buddy Hield, Tyreke Evans, Langston Galloway, a first and a second to acquire Boogie in the first place.  

[MKnight82]

21 minutes ago, e16bball said:

Robert Williams is my top choice. Like turtle, I’ve been on him for a while. Think he’s just a perfect fit for what we need. If he was a couple inches taller, I’d even consider moving up a bit to get him. 

Everything I've read is that he'll be gone before the Wizards pick.  

22 minutes ago, e16bball said:

Beyond him, though — I just don’t know. I like Mikal Bridges, but he won’t be there. And even if he was, he’s basically Otto II. I think Kevin Knox can play, but doubt he’ll be there either. Something about Miles Bridges just rubs me the wrong way but he’s a hell of an athlete. I’m not a huge Lonnie Walker fan (sorry Jeezy) but I have to say that Zhaire Smith is growing on me as an option at the 2. He’s got some shades of Donovan Mitchell in him. And I’ve basically never even seen Mitchell Robinson play, but his profile intrigues me as a potential rim-runner and rim-protector.

Mikal will be long gone.  Miles has a chance to be there, his upside is probably becoming what Morris is now for the Wizards.  So... meh?  

Kevin Knox, if he's there, would be a great pick IMO.  He's raw, but he's long an athletic, something the Wizards don't have a lot of.  

27 minutes ago, e16bball said:

But anyway, I do see why they’d be a little interested in moving this pick — other than Williams, who may well be gone, there’s really no perfect (or even “very good”) value/fit that I see who is likely to be available at their pick. And in a vacuum, it might be an okay option to move the pick. But they’re not in a vacuum, they’re in a scenario where they’ve opted entirely out of 3 of the last 4 drafts and now desperately need an influx of young, affordable talent. They need to keep both of these picks, big time.  

I think they really need to use the pick.  Like you said, they lack cost effective bench players and Oubre and Satoranksy are going to get more expensive after this year.

[Jeezy Fanatic]

 

 

[turtle28]

4 hours ago, e16bball said:

You’re right that Gortat’s trade value is almost entirely based on the fact that he’s an expiring contract — you’re actually right about everything in this post — but your tone kinda makes it sound like it’s a longshot that they could move him. Which I don’t think it is. A substantial expiring contract like his would have a lot of value to a team that’s close to having max cap room next summer (or even the summer after that).

One option would swap him for a better player whose contract is in the way of his team making a major upgrade. An example of that might be Mason Plumlee, whose contract ($14M in 2019) might stop the Nuggets from having max cap space after doing a Jokic extension but before extending Murray. A roster with Murray, Harris, Millsap, and Jokic might be pretty dangerous if they could land a max or near-max FA to play on the wing to complete their starting 5. But they probably can’t do that with Plumlee eating up that cap space. Even though they’d only be shedding one extra year of committed money, it would have substantial value if it allows them the ability to land the missing piece to go from good to possible contender.

The other option would be to take back a really bad contract and get another asset for assuming that bad deal. The Wizards are totally capped out for the future anyway — they could essentially try to steer into the skid and get a useful asset or in return for making their bad cap situation even worse. There are lots of bad long contracts out there, of course, but a couple I’d have my eye on would be James Johnson (MIA), Gorgui Dieng (MIN), Norman Powell (TOR), or Cody Zeller (CHA). You could swap their contracts for Gortat’s and give them tremendous cap relief. That would be worth something to any of those teams. The dream scenario for me would be giving up Gortat and maybe a little other filler, taking James Johnson off Miami’s hands (immediately deleting 2/$31M), and getting them to throw in Bam Adebayo. A stretch, but Miami is a team that very legitimately competes for the top FAs — so cap space means a ton to them.

The 3rd option, which is one I’ve been thinking about a lot, would be to include Gortat-for-bad-contract as one piece of a larger deal. The one I’ve been looking at there is Patty Mills (SAS). His contract is terrible. He’s still owed something like 3/$35M, which is just untenable for a 30-year-old undersized PG who went in the tank in starters’ minutes last season. I would be hoping to do some version of Gortat, Otto, and Sato for Kawhi and Mills. They probably can do better elsewhere, but this option would give them some major cap relief and can you think of a more Spurs-esque trio of players than a pure 3-and-D SF, a smart and sweet shooting tall Euro PG, and a skilled but grizzled screen-machine big man? That would be a pretty classic Spurs package.

Anyway, just some brain-storming there. Point being, I think there are some options out there for moving a good-sized expiring deal that’s attached to a still somewhat useful player.

 

 

Thank you E. Nice to have you around man.

I really want Kawhai, but I just doubt that happens and I also doubt that he’d want to sign long term here and trading for one year of his services makes absolutely zero sense.

I love that Miami idea! I’d love to get James Johnson and one of their young wings or Bam Adebayo.

[e16bball]

Two other guys who have really been climbing — and intrigue me because they have skillsets I like in a complementary player — are Jerome Robinson and Kevin Huerter. 

Both of them are outstanding shooters who have pretty well rounded offensive games. You could easily envision either of them fitting well between Sato and Oubre on that second unit and adding some firepower.

I don’t know that I personally love either of them at 15 — but if we moved down 5-8 spots to ditch some salary, I could see them as very appealing options. Maybe even Gary Trent could fill that sort of role as well, if we moved down a bit further.

Still very disappointing to be discussing primarily perimeter bench options when the glaring, desperate need is plainly a big man. But that’s the hand this draft pool is dealing us. 

[e16bball]

I think this is how my board would set up if I was running the Wizards. I bolded the guys who I think could reasonably still be available at our pick. The other guys would only be there if they fell substantially from where expectations currently have them.

 

Deandre Ayton

Jaren Jackson

Mohamed Bamba

Marvin Bagley

Michael Porter

Luka Doncic

Wendell Carter

Robert Williams

Mikal Bridges

Kevin Knox

Trae Young

Miles Bridges

Zhaire Smith

Jerome Robinson

Kevin Huerter

Lonnie Walker

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander (would look to trade)

Collin Sexton (would look to trade)

Mitchell Robinson

 

 

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, e16bball said:

Two other guys who have really been climbing — and intrigue me because they have skillsets I like in a complementary player — are Jerome Robinson and Kevin Huerter. 

Both of them are outstanding shooters who have pretty well rounded offensive games. You could easily envision either of them fitting well between Sato and Oubre on that second unit and adding some firepower.

I don’t know that I personally love either of them at 15 — but if we moved down 5-8 spots to ditch some salary, I could see them as very appealing options. Maybe even Gary Trent could fill that sort of role as well, if we moved down a bit further.

Still very disappointing to be discussing primarily perimeter bench options when the glaring, desperate need is plainly a big man. But that’s the hand this draft pool is dealing us. 

I’d take any of those guys with our second unit or Zahire Smith.

My hope is that if we move Gortat that we can sign a younger athletic big to compete with Mahinmi and our draft pick and re-sign Mike Scott.

I know it’s not ideal, but I for one don’t hate re-signing Mike Scott and having him start at PF & moving Kieff to C. That would give us a line up similar to what the Warriors run with and what Boston, Cleveland and Houston run with most of the time.

Wall: 24 pts, 11 asts, 4 rebs 

Beal: 26 pts, 4 asts, 4 rebs

Porter: 16 pts, 2 asts, 6 rebs

Scott: 14 pts, 2 asts, 7 rebs

Morris: 15 pts, 1 ast, 8 rebs

Edited June 21, 2018 by turtle28

[e16bball]

12 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

I’d take any of those guys with our second unit or Zahire Smith.

My hope is that if we move Gortat that we can sign a younger athletic big to compete with Mahinmi and our draft pick and re-sign Mike Scott.

I know it’s not ideal, but I for one don’t hate re-signing Mike Scott and having him start at PF & moving Kieff to C. That would give us a line up similar to what the Warriors run with and what Boston, Cleveland and Houston run with most of the time.

Wall: 24 pts, 11 asts, 4 rebs 

Beal: 26 pts, 4 asts, 4 rebs

Porter: 16 pts, 2 asts, 6 rebs

Scott: 14 pts, 2 asts, 7 rebs

Morris: 15 pts, 1 ast, 8 rebs

That would be a good offensive lineup.

The problem is that when Boston and Houston and Golden State do that, they have Al Horford and Clint Capela and Draymond Green anchoring their defense. We don’t have an elite defender to hold down the fort on the back end by himself. Hell, we don’t even have a mediocre interior defender in that lineup.

We would be more like Cleveland, who fielded a tragically awful defense. Especially up until they started going back to a more traditional group with one of Thompson and Nance on the floor most of the time. It would just be a parade to the basket for anybody who got past their primary defender. 

Gah, this team could use a Deandre Jordan type so damn badly.