Off-Topic: The Washington Wizards Thread

[MKnight82]

2 hours ago, e16bball said:

The short version of the above:

1. Otto Porter is a good player.

2. When he replaces (or is replaced by) bad players, the team will obviously be better off. 

3. Small sample sizes are of very little value and lead to overreactions that aren’t based in reality. Which has occurred on both sides of the Porter trade.

4. Porter’s inability to initiate offense and create for himself or teammates makes his ceiling that of a complementary player.

5. The players we got from the Bulls are talented losers who probably won’t be around for long.

6. It’s still a valuable trade for the Wizards because dumping Otto’s salary without giving up any assets to get someone to take it off your hands is a win. The opportunity to see if Portis/Parker take a step forward is just a bonus, as is the chance to improve the lottery odds.

7. The Wizards are still idiots for keeping (and playing) bums like Ariza and Johnson ahead of Dekker and Brown Jr. That part wasn’t included in the above, but it needed to be said.

 

I get what you're saying, but its hard to argue its a "win" to dump a pretty good player (I agree he's not a great player) on a very expensive contract when the team gave him that contract in the first place.  Wouldn't a win have been giving Porter a reasonable contract in the first place and still having him on the team?  Parker and Portis are not long term pieces, they are both going to want big deals this offseason that they are not worth.  

If this was a new GM cleaning up the mess Grunfeld left then I'd be 100% on board with your post, but I don't applaud a guy giving away talent to fix problems he created himself.  

Edited February 26, 2019 by MKnight82

[Woz]

On 2/25/2019 at 7:42 AM, Slateman said:

It's not like Grunfeld will draft anyone worthwhile with that pick.

At the same time, said player will be cheaper than any free agent they could get to fill the roster spot.

[Woz]

22 hours ago, turtle28 said:

Wizards: Dekker, Brown should play over Johnson

https://wizofawes.com/2019/02/24/washington-wizards-wesley-johnson-shouldnt-get-minutes-sam-dekker-troy-brown-jr/

A wise man once said...

Hmm, a wiser man also said:

On 2/8/2019 at 2:27 PM, Woz said:

Also, if Johnson does eat into Brown's minutes, then yes that's an even bigger problem since it means the coaching staff and/or front office cannot figure out how to utilize one of their only remaining two healthy first round picks of the past decade.

[turtle28]

3 hours ago, Woz said:

Hmm, a wiser man also said:

Definitely agree with the latter

[Skinsin2013]

19 hours ago, MKnight82 said:

I get what you're saying, but its hard to argue its a "win" to dump a pretty good player (I agree he's not a great player) on a very expensive contract when the team gave him that contract in the first place.  Wouldn't a win have been giving Porter a reasonable contract in the first place and still having him on the team?  Parker and Portis are not long term pieces, they are both going to want big deals this offseason that they are not worth.  

If this was a new GM cleaning up the mess Grunfeld left then I'd be 100% on board with your post, but I don't applaud a guy giving away talent to fix problems he created himself.  

I think the issues all stemmed from Ted's communicated desire to draft, grow, re-sign our own talent. That led to Ernie dishing out two poor contracts - Otto's and Wall's. The latter's is especially atrocious simply because he KNEW Wall had bone spurs... and this is a guy that relies on speed to get his easy buckets. I've documented a few other reasons the supermax was a bad idea. So, yeah, Ernie gets much of the blame. But he was simply carrying out Ted's vision... to a fault. 

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, Skinsin2013 said:

I think the issues all stemmed from Ted's communicated desire to draft, grow, re-sign our own talent. That led to Ernie dishing out two poor contracts - Otto's and Wall's. The latter's is especially atrocious simply because he KNEW Wall had bone spurs... and this is a guy that relies on speed to get his easy buckets. I've documented a few other reasons the supermax was a bad idea. So, yeah, Ernie gets much of the blame. But he was simply carrying out Ted's vision... to a fault. 

Wall’s contract wasn’t a bad one when it was given out, it has become a possibly bad contract because he’s been hurt the last two years. Those are things that are out of the control of the front office, there’s no way they could have predicted Wall’s 3 surgeries in the last two years.

Wall proved he was worth a super max deal when he made the All-NBA team and played great in the 2016 playoffs almost leading the Wizards to the Eastern Conference Finals.

(Averages of 27 pts, 11 assists a game)

Three seasons ago he was considered the top all around point guard in the Eastern Conference and the main reason he’s taken a step back from that level the last two seasons is because of injuries.

Again, it’s awful that Wall has gotten hurt - especially when the super max is about to kick in - but, how could anyone have predicted that?

The answer is, they couldn’t. Wall was and I think will continue to be the franchise player for the Wizards when he returns in 2020. He’s the player who fans most come to see play at Capital One arena and I think that will remain until he retires.

Edited February 27, 2019 by turtle28

[Woz]

Just now, turtle28 said:

Wall’s contract wasn’t a bad one when it was given out, it has become a possibly bad contract because he’s been hurt the last two years. Those are things that are out of the control of the front office, there’s no way they could have predicted Wall’s 3 surgeries in the last two years.

Wall proved he was worth a super max deal when he made the All-NBA team and played great in the 2016 playoffs almost leading the Wizards to the Eastern Conference Finals.

No, it was bad when given out because Wall isn't a transcendent player for whom giving a super max contract makes a lot of sense.

That's not a knock on Wall, but more from the fact that there are only a handful of players in the league for whom a super max is worthwhile: Lebron (not now, obviously), Durant, Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Giannis ... maybe a couple of others I'm not thinking of off the cuff.

Wall isn't one of those guys. Had he gotten Porter or Beal's contract at the time, it would have made sense(*). However, political realities took that option away. By political realities, I mean Grunfeld's incompetency at building a team for the long haul combined with letting Wall walk away. As I have said many times before, Washington is not a choice destination for free agents. They don't want to come here. With giving away draft picks like they are candy, Grunfeld made it impossible to build a truly competitive team. As such, the only way to keep Wall was to throw more money at him than anyone else could and ignore the tax ramifications.

 

 

(*) It would still look bad in hindsight due to Wall's injuries over the past two years, but at least the "no way they could have predicted Wall’s 3 surgeries in the last two years" argument would then hold some water.

[Skinsin2013]

5 hours ago, Woz said:

No, it was bad when given out because Wall isn't a transcendent player for whom giving a super max contract makes a lot of sense.

That's not a knock on Wall, but more from the fact that there are only a handful of players in the league for whom a super max is worthwhile: Lebron (not now, obviously), Durant, Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Giannis ... maybe a couple of others I'm not thinking of off the cuff.

Wall isn't one of those guys. Had he gotten Porter or Beal's contract at the time, it would have made sense(*). However, political realities took that option away. By political realities, I mean Grunfeld's incompetency at building a team for the long haul combined with letting Wall walk away. As I have said many times before, Washington is not a choice destination for free agents. They don't want to come here. With giving away draft picks like they are candy, Grunfeld made it impossible to build a truly competitive team. As such, the only way to keep Wall was to throw more money at him than anyone else could and ignore the tax ramifications.

 

 

(*) It would still look bad in hindsight due to Wall's injuries over the past two years, but at least the "no way they could have predicted Wall’s 3 surgeries in the last two years" argument would then hold some water.

This. Wall didn't fit then as a supermax. He'll never fit.

And the Wiz knew about the bone spurs. They knew about the other drawbacks I've mentioned too.

Terrible contract. Ryan Howard, Chris Davis-esque.

[Skinsin2013]

https://thesportsdaily.com/2019/02/28/otto-porter-wizards-bulls/

"Since being traded, Porter said he has not spoken with the team brass, but has kept in touch with former teammates like Jeff Green, Ian Mahinmi, and Tomas Satoransky. He won’t openly say it but he seems happier to no longer clash with Wall as multiple people have told Hoop District of mutual distaste between the two. With a fresh start in Chicago, Porter is focusing on his own growth and bonding with his new teammates."

Porter is doing just that. On Tuesday night, he had 20 points in the win against the Grizzlies. It is also worth noting that he is averaging 18.1 points so far since playing in Chicago in seven games. During that short time, he has already set a new career-high with 37 points. He was embraced by Bulls’ guard Zach Lavine after the win in Memphis as Lavine joked that their success is steaming from Porter’s presence. The Bulls have won five of their last eight games and even Chicago’s head coach Jim Boylen praised Porter for his leadership.

“Another thing I said to the team [after the game], is he settles us down,” Boylen said. “He’s poised. He makes the big shot when we need it. … So, we’re thankful for him.”

 

[turtle28]

On 3/1/2019 at 11:28 AM, Skinsin2013 said:

https://thesportsdaily.com/2019/02/28/otto-porter-wizards-bulls/

"Since being traded, Porter said he has not spoken with the team brass, but has kept in touch with former teammates like Jeff Green, Ian Mahinmi, and Tomas Satoransky. He won’t openly say it but he seems happier to no longer clash with Wall as multiple people have told Hoop District of mutual distaste between the two. With a fresh start in Chicago, Porter is focusing on his own growth and bonding with his new teammates."

Porter is doing just that. On Tuesday night, he had 20 points in the win against the Grizzlies. It is also worth noting that he is averaging 18.1 points so far since playing in Chicago in seven games. During that short time, he has already set a new career-high with 37 points. He was embraced by Bulls’ guard Zach Lavine after the win in Memphis as Lavine joked that their success is steaming from Porter’s presence. The Bulls have won five of their last eight games and even Chicago’s head coach Jim Boylen praised Porter for his leadership.

“Another thing I said to the team [after the game], is he settles us down,” Boylen said. “He’s poised. He makes the big shot when we need it. … So, we’re thankful for him.”

 

That’s fine, but he didn’t do it for us and again, Wall was never getting traded. I’m happy for Porter, I wanted us to draft him and was elated that he was on our team but I grew very frustrated with Porter bc he couldn’t average over 15 ppg after he signed his max deal.

I wanted him to get that deal at the time, ask anyone. Woz and I used to go back and forth on if Porter should be extended at that cost, and I said yes, Woz said no bc he wasn’t worth that contract.

I wish Porter the best, it just wasn’t working out in DC with him being the 3rd option and with him as the 2nd option it was a bit better because he did get more touches and shots, but even with him playing with a ball dominant guard like Beal, Porter still wasn’t earning his max contract in DC.

[turtle28]

So, one thing has become clear to me, w/ the intro of super max into NBA contracts. I think the NBA salary cap should go up next year for near the amt that a Super Max player costs. So, the cap should go up  around $40 M for the 2019-20 season. 

If it doesn’t, basically, teams with All-NBA players are being penalized if something like that doesn’t happen.

[MKnight82]

So I was listening to the radio this morning and the Wizards are heading straight toward a nightmare scenario.  Beal has a very good shot at landing 3rd Team All NBA this season based on his numbers.  If he does he becomes eligible for the Supermax extension, with escalation will be even more than Wall's contract.  There's no way the team could afford two supermax players.  

[Woz]

33 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

So I was listening to the radio this morning and the Wizards are heading straight toward a nightmare scenario.  Beal has a very good shot at landing 3rd Team All NBA this season based on his numbers.  If he does he becomes eligible for the Supermax extension, with escalation will be even more than Wall's contract.  There's no way the team could afford two supermax players.  

That's not true.

They could have Wall, Beal, and 13 D-League players.

[MKnight82]

2 minutes ago, Woz said:

That's not true.

They could have Wall, Beal, and 13 D-League players.

[Woz]

Just now, MKnight82 said: