MikeT14 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, Woz said: A playoff-focused team (like Denver) isn't going to do that, though. Your best hope for that is the Knicks. I think the Knicks are our Obi Wan Kenobi for that and I'm not sure they could do it until the deadline if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 On 7/8/2019 at 12:33 PM, Woz said: Given what the Clippers gave for Paul George, that was a giant mistake. EDIT: Yes, @e16bball, I think even if they got 75% on the deal, it would have still been worth it. Kind of a tricky situation though. I don’t think there’s any meaningful/reliable way to approximate what we could have gotten for Beal based on what they gave up for George. You can’t ballpark it based on Beal’s relative value compared to George, because they wouldn’t have given up that amount of assets just for Paul George either. They did that trade because acquiring George was the domino that needed to fall in order to get Kawhi to take their money in FA. In essence, they paid that price to secure the George/Leonard combo. I don’t think they would’ve traded anything close to that for Beal, because I don’t believe adding Beal would have gotten Kawhi to sign on. George, coming off a 1st team All-NBA season, is a substantially better player than Beal. He’s a legitimate top 10-15 player in the league, whereas Beal probably sits more in the 20-25 range. He’s also an elite wing defender, which Kawhi presumably values in a player (because it’s a big part of his value as well). Moreover, from a perception standpoint, they’re not even close. George has the “profile” of a superstar, with the perennial All-Star games and the USA basketball roster spot/gold medal and the unquestioned “franchise player” label from his time with the Pacers. Beal is still trying to shake free from the label of “John Wall’s sidekick” on a national scale. There may have been an opportunity for a trade of Beal to LAC, especially if they had missed out on Kawhi. But I don’t think it would ever have even approached what OKC got once Kawhi signed off on George as his “second star.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsin2013 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 OKC now has 15 first round picks in the next 7 years... plus multiple pick swaps. One step back... one giant leap over a fence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeezy Fanatic Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Skinsin2013 said: OKC now has 15 first round picks in the next 7 years... plus multiple pick swaps. One step back... one giant leap over a fence. John Wall + a bunch of firsts for CP3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT14 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 14 minutes ago, Jeezy Fanatic said: John Wall + a bunch of firsts for CP3? So, in theory, I don't hate this for OKC. They tank, they keep loading up their firsts, they get better when Wall comes back. They can move on from him when the other contracts come due. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsin2013 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Jeezy Fanatic said: John Wall + a bunch of firsts for CP3? Fine with that so long as Beal is traded to get some of those firsts back. Otherwise, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
e16bball Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, MikeT14 said: So, in theory, I don't hate this for OKC. They tank, they keep loading up their firsts, they get better when Wall comes back. They can move on from him when the other contracts come due. Who would hate that for OKC? It’s awful for the Wizards, but it’s clearly OK for OKC. Their salaries are essentially a wash for the next 3 seasons, about 3/$124M for both. Wall has the huge 2022-23 salary of $47M, that’s the difference between the two from a contract standpoint. Since Wall will likely sit out the 2019-20 season, you’ll clearly get more production from CP3 in the upcoming year. But neither team is trying/hoping to compete this season, so that production will essentially have no value. Probably negative value, when viewed with a long-term lens. In terms of long-term potential production, the edge clearly goes to Wall. That’s not to say Wall is a sure bet to contribute a whole lot — it’s just to say it’s a pretty sure bet that CP3 won’t be worth much (if anything) in a couple seasons. Undersized PGs usually age poorly, and you can see the decline already starting with CP3. He turned 34 a couple months ago, his last 3 seasons have been dogged by nagging injuries that have kept him out for 20+ games a year, and his numbers plummeted pretty dramatically across the board last season. The cliff is coming, and quickly. There’s just no chance he ever contributes anything of value on the next decent Wizards team. Wall may well never contribute anything of value either, but at least there’s a greater than zero chance of that happening with him, given that he’s 5 years younger. I’m not sure I would trade Wall for CP3 straight up. But I’m damn sure I wouldn’t trade any (1st round!) picks to do it. As I’ve said before, for teams like the Wizards, trades that prioritize future cap space over future picks are really bad ideas. Cap space is only as good as what you can do with it, and the Wizards will never be able to do much with it. Especially if/when the roster has been stripped down to nothing.The only way they’re ever going to get true elite talent to come to DC is through the draft — and giving up some of their best chances to pull that off, in order to gain a year’s worth of cap space in 2023, is really foolish. Edited July 12, 2019 by e16bball 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 49 minutes ago, e16bball said: I’m not sure I would trade Wall for CP3 straight up. But I’m damn sure I wouldn’t trade any (1st round!) picks to do it. As I’ve said before, for teams like the Wizards, trades that prioritize future cap space over future picks are really bad ideas. Cap space is only as good as what you can do with it, and the Wizards will never be able to do much with it. Especially if/when the roster has been stripped down to nothing.The only way they’re ever going to get true elite talent to come to DC is through the draft — and giving up some of their best chances to pull that off, in order to gain a year’s worth of cap space in 2023, is really foolish. This is why holding on to Beal instead of trading him when the market was at its highest (granted not as high as George's but still pretty hot) was probably a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 3 hours ago, Woz said: This is why holding on to Beal instead of trading him when the market was at its highest (granted not as high as George's but still pretty hot) was probably a mistake. Only if Beal doesn't want to be here. Both George and Westbrook asked to be traded. If Beal wants to stay, why are you trading him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 20 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: Only if Beal doesn't want to be here. Both George and Westbrook asked to be traded. If Beal wants to stay, why are you trading him? Because his value to me in the long term is a net negative. He's going to win games this coming year when I don't want to win games in the coming year thus hurting my lottery chances. He's valuable as a trade chip right now, improving what I can do in the upcoming draft (and potential future ones, depending on what the deal is). He's eating up a lot of cap space, which prevents me from taking on other team's cap dumps in exchange for more draft picks at the trade deadline. Washington is not in a position to win this year. Arguably, they're not in a position to win next year either. Aim to build for 2021 or 2022 and going forward. There's also the question of whether Beal wants to stay. Does he really want to be on a team that's going nowhere? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Woz said: Because his value to me in the long term is a net negative. He's going to win games this coming year when I don't want to win games in the coming year thus hurting my lottery chances. He's valuable as a trade chip right now, improving what I can do in the upcoming draft (and potential future ones, depending on what the deal is). He's eating up a lot of cap space, which prevents me from taking on other team's cap dumps in exchange for more draft picks at the trade deadline. Washington is not in a position to win this year. Arguably, they're not in a position to win next year either. Aim to build for 2021 or 2022 and going forward. There's also the question of whether Beal wants to stay. Does he really want to be on a team that's going nowhere? He hasn't came and out and asked for a trade so why are you assuming he doesn't want to be here? I'd rather keep him if he wants to stay rather than trade him away for some unknown prospect. I'm all for trading him once again if he doesn't want to be here long term though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Skins212689 said: He hasn't came and out and asked for a trade so why are you assuming he doesn't want to be here? I'd rather keep him if he wants to stay rather than trade him away for some unknown prospect. I'm all for trading him once again if he doesn't want to be here long term though. Because I assume that players want to win championships and his prime years are going to be wasted on a team whose current construction (and situation they find themselves) seems to have a ceiling of a 7th/8th round seed and a first round exit? If that's not his goal, then what is? Just getting money? He can do that somewhere else and Washington can get something in return. Him not saying "trade me" doesn't mean he wants to stay. It just means he hasn't rocked the boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins212689 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Woz said: Because I assume that players want to win championships and his prime years are going to be wasted on a team whose current construction (and situation they find themselves) seems to have a ceiling of a 7th/8th round seed and a first round exit? If that's not his goal, then what is? Just getting money? He can do that somewhere else and Washington can get something in return. Him not saying "trade me" doesn't mean he wants to stay. It just means he hasn't rocked the boat. From reports Beal hasn't told the organization he doesn't want to be here or isn't plan on staying. So personally I'd resign him if he's willing to go through some tough times with them. Rui is showing alot of good things in the summer league so yea they might not be a playoff team next season, but they could still be a team on the rise with a good draft next year and some good Free Agent signings. 2021 year you have Wall, Beal, Rui, and possibly that top prospect from the 2020 draft that has them back in the playoffs. I don't agree with just handing Beal away for anything especially if he's willing to stick around. Westbrook, George, Leonard, and DeRozan all stuck with their teams until IT was clear they needed a new scenery. They could hold onto Beal another 2 seasons I believe to increase his value as well to get more if he does want to essentially leave in the long run. I'd only trade Beal right now if I get one of these guys in return: Donovan Mitchell, Jayson Tatum, Devin Booker, or Jamaal Murray. Edited July 13, 2019 by Skins212689 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavar703 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 They got it right with Rui I’m thinking. Thought it was a good pick at the time and the summer league is just reaffirming how I felt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsin2013 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Who cares if Beal wants to be here or not? How does that impact trade value? Again, the Wiz are in flux... extending Beal doesn't make any sense. Trading him, and netting/using first rounders, does. Too many fans catch feelings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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