Why Josh Rosen Isn’t the Quarterback You Think He Is

[TheVillain112]

10 hours ago, Da_Ducktator said:

Throwing on the move and deep ball are going to be big factors in the NFL. You can see, by the film and the numbers, basically anytime he is asked to throw off the intended launch point that he generally struggles. Around 42 percentage on the move and numerous cases of the ball just completely missing it's target because it doesn't have the zip behind it.

100% agree with that.  It's why I have Mayfield ranked above him.  I do go back and fourth between Rosen and Darnold though.  Darnold shows the ability to throw accurately on the move, but Rosen looks better from the pocket.  Rosen also gets into groves where he can move an offense quickly down the field.  I have Rosen slightly ahead of Darnold.  Was just disappointed in this last season for Darnold.  Expected him to take a step forward and he took a step back.  I don't want to force liking Darnold more...

[Scout]

I think deep ball gets better in the NFL, so long as you have requisite arm strength and have accuracy short and intermediate. Alex Smith and Ryan Tannehill are 2 examples. Perhaps it's more about timing/chemistry. 

[MistaBohmbastic]

@Da_Ducktator Great stuff dude. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for more of your posts/tweets. 

I am a Darnold guy myself, but for a number of reasons, I think my Browns will take either him or Mayfield, and I want to gauge as many opinions as I can about both.

I really like your perspective on Mayfield's attitude concerns. Aside from the whole being tackled by the cops thing, most of those overdramatic reactions of his have taken place on a football field, and that's why I believe people can overlook them. It is thrilling to watch a guy with such a fiery attitude on the field, but he certainly crosses a line. And yet, no matter how often he does, he never seems to learn.

I have heard from someone who works inside the Browns facility that Baker went out and got trashed the night before his visit with the Browns. This, after apparently being told by a high up person in Cleveland's front office to keep his head down and not do anything stupid. He didn't get arrested that night or anything, but it's flirting with disaster. And I think that speaks to your point that he just doesn't learn. That's definitely a concern.

[Da_Ducktator]

20 minutes ago, MistaBohmbastic said:

@Da_Ducktator Great stuff dude. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out for more of your posts/tweets. 

I am a Darnold guy myself, but for a number of reasons, I think my Browns will take either him or Mayfield, and I want to gauge as many opinions as I can about both.

I really like your perspective on Mayfield's attitude concerns. Aside from the whole being tackled by the cops thing, most of those overdramatic reactions of his have taken place on a football field, and that's why I believe people can overlook them. It is thrilling to watch a guy with such a fiery attitude on the field, but he certainly crosses a line. And yet, no matter how often he does, he never seems to learn.

I have heard from someone who works inside the Browns facility that Baker went out and got trashed the night before his visit with the Browns. This, after apparently being told by a high up person in Cleveland's front office to keep his head down and not do anything stupid. He didn't get arrested that night or anything, but it's flirting with disaster. And I think that speaks to your point that he just doesn't learn. That's definitely a concern.

It obviously won't affect everybody the same, but I have heard dating back nearly a decade that Oklahoma doesn't exactly have the strictest atmosphere. It seems to turn out a lot of quality programs have had those issues at points (Texas under Mack, Florida under Urban), but they have had 54 draft picks since 2007 and only five Pro Bowlers, and no Pro Bowlers drafted since DeMarco Murray (six straight drafts without producing a Pro Bowler). Proof is in the pudding when you see Baker contentiously pulling these stunts and getting away with slaps on the wrist and the way the Joe Mixon situation was handled.

[bzane]

21 hours ago, Ozzy said:

Oddly enough I still think his character and overall personality might be his biggest issue.  The kid is not an 'alpha', he does not communicate with his teammates all that well and has odd body language on the field and the sidelines.  Also with comments he has made before the college season and before the draft recently he is come off to me little stuck up and snobby.  

Ohhh, I don't CARE what the stats say, and what all the nay-sayers and Gale Sayers and Debbie Downers would have us believe about Josh!

What matter if football isn't the most important thing in the life of this Young Renaissance Man? He's fine, and good, and elite and aloof and Entitled! Why should Josh Rosen deign to spend all his free time with the grunting Neanderthals on his team, when in body and mind and spirit he is attuned to the Finer Things?? What's wrong if Josh wishes to remain an Old Money Patrician, scion of a wealthy family, true to the traditions of caste and class that have always been a hallmark of the melange that is American Society? Why should not Josh concern himself with the intricacies and intrigues of Wall Street, rather than "progression reads" and "anticipating receivers" and "throwing on the run"?

This fine young Frat Boy bids fair to open the door to a Brave New World of NFL Football, where the sweat and the swearing and the violence and the Philistine values give way to Grace....Culture......New Thought..... Enlightenment........Entitlement (oops, he's already got that). 

"He is Rosen indeed." Let's wish him well!

 

 

 

[Da_Ducktator]

 

@Iamcanadian

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, bzane said:

Ohhh, I don't CARE what the stats say, and what all the nay-sayers and Gale Sayers and Debbie Downers would have us believe about Josh!

What matter if football isn't the most important thing in the life of this Young Renaissance Man? He's fine, and good, and elite and aloof and Entitled! Why should Josh Rosen deign to spend all his free time with the grunting Neanderthals on his team, when in body and mind and spirit he is attuned to the Finer Things?? What's wrong if Josh wishes to remain an Old Money Patrician, scion of a wealthy family, true to the traditions of caste and class that have always been a hallmark of the melange that is American Society? Why should not Josh concern himself with the intricacies and intrigues of Wall Street, rather than "progression reads" and "anticipating receivers" and "throwing on the run"?

This fine young Frat Boy bids fair to open the door to a Brave New World of NFL Football, where the sweat and the swearing and the violence and the Philistine values give way to Grace....Culture......New Thought..... Enlightenment........Entitlement (oops, he's already got that). 

"He is Rosen indeed." Let's wish him well!

 

 

 

 

Look Johnny Manziel has a photo of two girls kissing him as well, better put him in the Hall of Fame for that.  Not exactly difficult thing to do for a starting QB in college, what is difficult is to lead grown men in the NFL, hard to do when one cannot even accomplish that in college football.

 

Sure Josh Rosen can have other interests outside of football, but when it comes to football he is lacking in a lot of ways I feel.  Will see how he does no doubt but there are some red flags with him, then again arguably there are for every top QB in this years draft.  But I would follow the likes of Mayfield and Darnold as a leader all day over Rosen, even Jackson and Rudolph have shown more in terms of leadership and being able to communicate and get along with their teammates more than Rosen has I feel.  Some people want him to be the next really big thing at QB, he is not.  

 

[Da_Ducktator]

4 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Sure Josh Rosen can have other interests outside of football, but when it comes to football he is lacking in a lot of ways I feel.  Will see how he does no doubt but there are some red flags with him, then again arguably there are for every top QB in this years draft.  But I would follow the likes of Mayfield and Darnold as a leader all day over Rosen, even Jackson and Rudolph have shown more in terms of leadership and being able to communicate and get along with their teammates more than Rosen has I feel.  Some people want him to be the next really big thing at QB, he is not.  

I would also mention Allen as someone who clearly has shown leadership. Kid came back for a meaningless ball game in Boise, Idaho when he already had a top 5 selection locked in just because he wanted to play with his teammates one more time.

[bzane]

3 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Look Johnny Manziel has a photo of two girls kissing him as well, better put him in the Hall of Fame for that.  Not exactly difficult thing to do for a starting QB in college, what is difficult is to lead grown men in the NFL, hard to do when one cannot even accomplish that in college football.

 

Sure Josh Rosen can have other interests outside of football, but when it comes to football he is lacking in a lot of ways I feel.  Will see how he does no doubt but there are some red flags with him, then again arguably there are for every top QB in this years draft.  But I would follow the likes of Mayfield and Darnold as a leader all day over Rosen, even Jackson and Rudolph have shown more in terms of leadership and being able to communicate and get along with their teammates more than Rosen has I feel.  Some people want him to be the next really big thing at QB, he is not.  

 

@Ozzy- Oz, old buddy, I was kidding around there. Sort of a satire on the sort of Man-Crush irrational non-football reactions people have to such things. In all seriousness, I agree with you, and most certainly do NOT want the oft-injured, disengaged Rosen for the Giants. 

[Ozzy]

16 minutes ago, Da_Ducktator said:

I would also mention Allen as someone who clearly has shown leadership. Kid came back for a meaningless ball game in Boise, Idaho when he already had a top 5 selection locked in just because he wanted to play with his teammates one more time.

I agree, just have to watch Allen and his body language and how he interacts with his teammates it is much better.  Even watch one interview with him compared to Rosen he seems a lot more likable and seems like a guy players would not have an issues with as much.  Sure they did not win huge games but did indeed bring Wyoming to a new level with him being the starting QB and they were easily one of the best teams in that league.  I also liked how he played the bowl game and did not sit it out like so many others did.  Do wish his JR year was more like his SOPH year but still, he has a lot of tools and his ability to throw on the move makes him a really interesting talent.  

 

16 minutes ago, bzane said:

@Ozzy- Oz, old buddy, I was kidding around there. Sort of a satire on the sort of Man-Crush irrational non-football reactions people have to such things. In all seriousness, I agree with you, and most certainly do NOT want the oft-injured, disengaged Rosen for the Giants. 

Oh my mistake, guess I should turn my sarcasm meter up a little.  Giants honestly should take Barkley if the Browns take Darnold, that would help that team and not sure they should give up on Eli just yet.  And if they are probably go with Allen unless the Browns take him at #1.  

[Ozzy]

7 hours ago, TheVillain112 said:

100% agree with that.  It's why I have Mayfield ranked above him.  I do go back and fourth between Rosen and Darnold though.  Darnold shows the ability to throw accurately on the move, but Rosen looks better from the pocket.  Rosen also gets into groves where he can move an offense quickly down the field.  I have Rosen slightly ahead of Darnold.  Was just disappointed in this last season for Darnold.  Expected him to take a step forward and he took a step back.  I don't want to force liking Darnold more...

Very true, but how could you be disappointed by Darnold's last season more than Josh Rosen?  Sure Darnold was not very good late in the year this season but Rosen did not even freaking play in his bowl game.  And when he did play in the big games this year he lost them all, and big loses to Stanford and Washington by over 20 points, did outplay Darnold against USC but UCLA still lost the game. 

 

Darnold on the other hand played good against Stanford and won by almost 20 points, played good against Texas and won in OT and played good against Stanford again in the Pac title game and won.  Did have a poor game against Notre Dame though and Ohio State but still comparing the seasons I think Darnold was better but his turnovers were his biggest problem especially the fumbles.  However I do agree he did not exactly progress like most would have liked and same could be said for Rosen and even Josh Allen, yet all will still be top 5 picks oddly enough....

[Kip Smithers]

Funny thing is that you do this similar  “study” to show why he is the best in the class. 

[BleedTheClock]

Great post, @Da_Ducktator

I like Rosen, but I don't really think he's safe. He has very polished mechanics, but that doesn't mean he's necessarily safe to me.

He doesn't have the greatest arm and isn't good when forced off the spot. Those two things are quite obvious on film. He also had some straight up bad games. His lack of mobility allowed teams to tee off on him which didn't help matters. He needs to have pieces around him to be successful, but if you put him behind talented players, he will be REALLY good.

His best attribute, aside from smooth mechanics, is the way he effortlessly puts the ball on guys in stride. His ball placement to allow for RAC is ELITE. I have no doubts he's going to be in the NFL for a long time barring injuries, but there are questions as to how good he'll be. I think he'll end up being pretty darn good, but I'm not so sure he's the safest prospect in the world because of his concussions and average physical gifts at best.

His attitude doesn't really bother me. It's strange that he says some of the things he does because NFL GM's are obviously going to hate hearing those things, but it does show me that he's extremely honest and open about what his beliefs are. He's not spitting out these robotic answers that most of these prospects do. He's being himself and honestly, I'm ok with who he is and what he says and does. I'm more skeptical of the guys that deflect questions and spit out the most cliche answers known to man. We all know who Josh Rosen is, and I don't think his personality will affect his on-field play whatsoever.

[Ozzy]

Really Allen and Rosen are total opposites as players, like completely on different sides of the spectrum coming out of high school.  

 

 

Josh Allen:

*Unranked out of high school, was not offered a scholarship, 0 Star recruit.

 

"Grew up on a 3,000 acre farm in California established by his paternal grandfather, in small town about 40 times west of Fresno and 20 miles to the nearest freeway."  He also "regularly worked on the family farm and at the restaurant his mother operated in Firebaugh"

"At the time, Josh was about 6-foot-3 and 180 pounds. He hadn't attended the elite quarterback camps and wasn't a widely known prospect. His high school team didn't participate in many 7-on-7 camps because Josh and many of his teammates were busy playing baseball and other sports. He was the leading scorer on his basketball team and also pitched on the baseball team, reaching 90 mph with his fastball."

 

 

 

Josh Rosen: 

*#1 QB rated out of high school, 5 Star recruit

"Parents are Charles Rosen, an orthopedic spine surgeon, and Liz Lippincott, a former journalist"

"In retrospect, being Jewish is a big reason why I should have considered UCLA. Just because of how Jewish Hollywood is, and they really want someone to look up to because they just don't have professional athletes."

"He grew up playing tennis; at age 12 he was the No. 1-ranked player for his age group in Southern California and top-50 in the country, and he became a top-10 player in junior rankings. He was introduced to football in elementary school by a friend's father who was a youth coach. Right before high school, Rosen switched from tennis to football."

 

 

 

Now maybe it is just me, but growing up and working on a farm one potentially experienced a lot more hard work as a adolescent than living in a wealthy family.  Sure surgeon's work hard as well but in terms of physical labor, I would assume Josh Allen has Rosen beat in terms of overall work ethic and determination.  Will be really interesting how their careers turn out with these two polar opposites coming out of high school.    

 

 

 

[Chwf3rd25]

Im not sure how relevant you'll find this but I think it needs to be said that Rosen had to play with 3 different offensive coordinators in 3 years.

22 hours ago, Scout said:

"While Mayfield had the lowest percentage of tight-window throws in the class last season, he was by far the most accurate in those situations, coming in 9.0 percent better than the No. 2 quarterback, UCLA’s Josh Rosen. Mayfield has the zip to fire the ball in between zones and he has the accuracy to “throw receivers open” away from the leverage of defenders. Both are important traits for the next level, and Mayfield showed well in these difficult situations, even if they don’t show up as often as other quarterbacks in the class."

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-2018-nfl-draft-narrative-busters

 

 

how do you explain the contradiction between PFF's measurement of accuracy in "tight window throws" vs the one you used by Solak?  Why did you choose to use Solak's instead of PFF's?

 

1 hour ago, Ozzy said:

Really Allen and Rosen are total opposites as players, like completely on different sides of the spectrum coming out of high school.  

 

 

Josh Allen:

*Unranked out of high school, was not offered a scholarship, 0 Star recruit.

 

"Grew up on a 3,000 acre farm in California established by his paternal grandfather, in small town about 40 times west of Fresno and 20 miles to the nearest freeway."  He also "regularly worked on the family farm and at the restaurant his mother operated in Firebaugh"

"At the time, Josh was about 6-foot-3 and 180 pounds. He hadn't attended the elite quarterback camps and wasn't a widely known prospect. His high school team didn't participate in many 7-on-7 camps because Josh and many of his teammates were busy playing baseball and other sports. He was the leading scorer on his basketball team and also pitched on the baseball team, reaching 90 mph with his fastball."

 

 

 

Josh Rosen: 

*#1 QB rated out of high school, 5 Star recruit

"Parents are Charles Rosen, an orthopedic spine surgeon, and Liz Lippincott, a former journalist"

"In retrospect, being Jewish is a big reason why I should have considered UCLA. Just because of how Jewish Hollywood is, and they really want someone to look up to because they just don't have professional athletes."

"He grew up playing tennis; at age 12 he was the No. 1-ranked player for his age group in Southern California and top-50 in the country, and he became a top-10 player in junior rankings. He was introduced to football in elementary school by a friend's father who was a youth coach. Right before high school, Rosen switched from tennis to football."

 

 

 

Now maybe it is just me, but growing up and working on a farm one potentially experienced a lot more hard work as a adolescent than living in a wealthy family.  Sure surgeon's work hard as well but in terms of physical labor, I would assume Josh Allen has Rosen beat in terms of overall work ethic and determination.  Will be really interesting how their careers turn out with these two polar opposites coming out of high school.    

 

 

 

This is the absolute worst kind mindless drivel.  Rosen being a top 50 tennis player at age 12, growing up in California, and having a surgeon as a dad somehow shows that he has less "overall work ethic and determination" than Allen because Allen grew up on a farm?  Give me a ******* break.  And what the hell is him talking about being Jewish and wanting to live in Los Angeles about?  Maybe you're construing that statement as him saying he wants to have movies made about him?  Furthermore, what about Sam Darnold?  Did he not grow up in a beach town in Southern California? Should we now dock him for having less "work ethic and determination" than Josh Allen?

Unless you know Josh Rosen personally or secretly work for an NFL team you have no idea what he's like as a person and neither does anyone else on here.  Is it safe to assume he's kind of a ****** given all the smoke around is personality issues?  Probably so.  But if you're going to use his personality issues as part of your argument state it that way instead of relying on complete stereotypes and generalizations.