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Montana on Brady's longevity


sportjames23

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On 5/4/2018 at 4:10 PM, Non-Issue said:

I often wonder if you are trying to be creative and imaginative or if you are just hallucinating.

lol I very basically and logically mapped out how real competition would work. You're so stunned, that the best you can do is make a joke.

i'm not the one hallucinating.

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On 5/4/2018 at 4:09 PM, Non-Issue said:

 

I said violently blind sided.. those players saw the hits coming and werent that hard except for Cutler.You arent thinking critically what so ever.

my point is valid and remains. Wrestlers bleed too in staged fights. When you make a million, you will be told to take a lick here and there.. but none of these hits ended any careers.

the world is cruel place. You need to learn how to discern the difference between genuine and manipulated.

 

 

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On 5/3/2018 at 6:18 AM, lancerman said:

Joe Flacco slid at the very last second and a defender didn’t pull up and it became a massive controversy this year. 

it became a controversy because you followed their lead of telling you it was a controversy. One jock ran into another jock on tv. Nothing important happened.

they both walked away and got paid.

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2 hours ago, biletnikoff said:

it became a controversy because you followed their lead of telling you it was a controversy. One jock ran into another jock on tv. Nothing important happened.

they both walked away and got paid.

Considering I said nothing was wrong with it, that’s a lot of projecting on your part.

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  • 3 months later...

If Bill Walsh was so aware of how "great" Montana was, why did he pull him down 17 with 6:29 left in the 3rd quarter of the 1987-88 playoff game vs. the Vikings (and about to get the ball on the Vikings' 35 yard line)?

Here Montana is coming off the second best season of his career, statistically-speaking (although he padded it slightly from the fact he crossed over for a couple of the replacement games), and they're in what is still a winnable game...and he gets pulled.

Tell me another great quarterback that has happened to. 

Can you imagine that happening to Brady, Manning, Brees, or Rodgers? 

Different era, you say?

Fine. How about Dan Marino? In his final game, it took until they were down 47-7 in the 3rd quarter for him to be pulled.

The Packers didn't pull Favre while they were still in a game no matter how badly he was performing. 

Steve Young threw a fit on the sidelines and tried to get into a fist fight with George Seifert when he was pulled vs. the Eagles in 1994...but they were down 33-8 late in the 3rd. 

Dan Fouts finished his terrible playoff games. 

And keep in mind, Bill Walsh thought about resigning as 49ers head coach basically every year after the 1982 season because of how strained his relationship was with DeBartolo. He was, as Bill Parcells once said of himself, a "yellow bananas" sort of guy, as opposed to "green bananas." When he got a player, it was because he thought the guy could help him immediately. He wasn't a fan of "projects." When John Taylor didn't know the offense in camp in 1986, he immediately tried to shop him around the league before they just put him on IR.

When he traded for Steve Young, it was because he was looking to replace Joe Montana in the very near future. And as raw as Young was at the time, he still didn't think the margins between them were that great. 

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On 4/17/2018 at 4:01 AM, Aztec Hammer said:

It's definitely easier, though QBs still take mega shots now for sure. Look at the number of concussed QBs we get throughout the season. They are being hit by faster and stronger players than ever before.

If you watch Montana whenever he is asked about Brady, there is quite clearly some competitive fire/jealousy or whatever you want to call it. He does not like to admit that Brady is the best QB ever and to be honest, I don't blame him. I imagine that if I was an all-time player, I would find it hard to admit that any other player was better than me.

I don't care how big and fast the players are. I have seen highlights of Mean Joe Greene quite literally suplex QB's seconds after the play is over with no flag being thrown. I would take a shot in the numbers from the best of today, anyday rather then have WWE wrestling moves performed on me just to get me out of the game by guys not nearly as athletic. QB's back then were warriors.

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On 2018-04-17 at 5:41 AM, sportjames23 said:

of course he is right. Brady wouldn't have lasted this long in the NFL in the 70's or 80's.  Injuries would have caught up to him just like everyone else, no exceptions. QB's in recent time have been able to play to older age since the rules have changed.  It's  allowing the league to be saturated in QB's and could also be a reason the league could eventually add more expansion teams and have a realignment and change the playoff format. If the elite QB's play 5 years longer, that is a overpopulated  QB market with draft picks every year and only 32 teams. 

Then consider these QB's in todays game that used to get hit, (the older elite ones that are in their  approx. 15th season) and how much easier it is for them now and the paydays that wait for them. They make 3x what they  used to and get hit much less, sounds like a reason to stay around . Even a QB that hints at retiring might suddenly decide on playing another 3 or 4 years and all while in the process Rodgers gets his deal and everything seems to benefit the QB that would normally have been retired and forced to retire way back. 

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On 2018-04-17 at 7:01 AM, Aztec Hammer said:

It's definitely easier, though QBs still take mega shots now for sure. Look at the number of concussed QBs we get throughout the season. They are being hit by faster and stronger players than ever before.

If you watch Montana whenever he is asked about Brady, there is quite clearly some competitive fire/jealousy or whatever you want to call it. He does not like to admit that Brady is the best QB ever and to be honest, I don't blame him. I imagine that if I was an all-time player, I would find it hard to admit that any other player was better than me.

how much of the above could be related to spy gate ? Maybe Joe (like others) has * beside Brady because of spy gate .  I disagree with faster stronger players comment above but understand that many see the game that way. Back in joe's day, there was astroturf which was faster and also painful to land on or being tackled into .  There were not concussion protocols back then, so many stats out there were under the concussion secrecy  as well.  The new rules, gloves and training make this game now a passing game, so there is not point comparing someone today vs 30 years ago. 

On a side note, Elway finally got a Defence and a running game and won back to back in his last years on really bad knees. What if he won 3 in a row, would he be the greatest.  Aikman could have won 4 in a row some would say (people blame switzer for lack of control of the players) , with that team but he never even gets mentioned in the top 10 O.o .  It's a team sport, and defence and running games are important in winning super bowls for those that like to mention the # of rings or appearances.

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3 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

how much of the above could be related to spy gate ? Maybe Joe (like others) has * beside Brady because of spy gate .  I disagree with faster stronger players comment above but understand that many see the game that way. Back in joe's day, there was astroturf which was faster and also painful to land on or being tackled into .  There were not concussion protocols back then, so many stats out there were under the concussion secrecy  as well.  The new rules, gloves and training make this game now a passing game, so there is not point comparing someone today vs 30 years ago. 

On a side note, Elway finally got a Defence and a running game and won back to back in his last years on really bad knees. What if he won 3 in a row, would he be the greatest.  Aikman could have won 4 in a row some would say (people blame switzer for lack of control of the players) , with that team but he never even gets mentioned in the top 10 O.o .  It's a team sport, and defence and running games are important in winning super bowls for those that like to mention the # of rings or appearances.

Considering Joe basically said if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying when asked about that and laughed a question about that off, I doubt he cares tbh. 

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1 minute ago, lancerman said:

 

Considering Joe basically said if you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying when asked about that and laughed a question about that off, I doubt he cares tbh. 

there is always cheating going on isn't there :ph34r:  it's another reason we can't compare different era's , which cheating method helped more-_-

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10 hours ago, NFLExpert49 said:

If Bill Walsh was so aware of how "great" Montana was, why did he pull him down 17 with 6:29 left in the 3rd quarter of the 1987-88 playoff game vs. the Vikings (and about to get the ball on the Vikings' 35 yard line)?

Because Montana was having a terrible game and was getting destroyed by the Vikings defense? And because Walsh was hoping that Steve Young's legs would be able to beat the pass rush that that was killing an old and slow 31 year old starting Montana and spark a rally? Sound reasonable?

If Montana WASN'T Bill Walsh's guy, and Bill didn't think Joe was great, why did Bill stick with Joe from the time Joe landed in SF until the time Bill left? One of Bill Walsh's first moves was drafting Montana. And Montana was his starting quarterback from the minute Steve DeBerg went down in 1980 until Bill Walsh left in 1988 after winning his 3rd superbowl wit Joe Montana. 

In the 10 years that Bill Walsh coached the Niners, he drafted exactly ONE other QB. Scott Barry in the 6th round in 1985. He didn't bring in Steve Young until Montana, at 30 years old, broke his back and his ability to continue to play football long term was cast completely into doubt. Which, you are suggesting, is coincidental?

Better yet, if Bill Walsh didn't think Joe was great, and wanted to replace him, why are we hearing this from you and literally no other sources ever?

Let's do the math:
Drafted Joe Montana
Stuck with Joe Montana the entire time he coached the Niners
Won 3 Superbowls with him
Never drafted/signed/traded for a QB as anything more than a backup until Montana mangled his back and suffered a severe concussion
Did nothing but praise Montana the entire time he coached him and continued to do so the rest of his life. Calling him the "greatest QB ever."

vs

He had other QBs rated higher in the 1979 draft
He traded for Steve Young
He pulled Montana in the 3rd quarter of a playoff game in 1987

You are terrible at this. You really are. Of course Walsh thought Montana was great. Did he think Montana was great when he drafted him? Of course not. He was a rookie coming out of college. Was his mind changed over the course of nearly a decade coaching him? Yes. Without question.

Quote

When he traded for Steve Young, it was because he was looking to replace Joe Montana in the very near future. And as raw as Young was at the time, he still didn't think the margins between them were that great. 

He brought Steve Young in to be the eventual successor to Joe Montana. Joe Montana had just had a very serious back injury (as well as a season ending severe concussion so bad it landed him in the hospital) and the doctors did not know if Montana could return to form or even if he should return. They said if he did, he might be risking paralysis. So Walsh hedged his bets. It had absolutely nothing to do with Walsh not thinking Montana wasn't a great QB and everything to do with the fact that he knew his great QB was starting to break down and it would be prudent to find that successor sooner rather than later. 

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10 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

Because Montana was having a terrible game and was getting destroyed by the Vikings defense? And because Walsh was hoping that Steve Young's legs would be able to beat the pass rush that that was killing an old and slow 31 year old starting Montana and spark a rally? Sound reasonable?

If Montana WASN'T Bill Walsh's guy, and Bill didn't think Joe was great, why did Bill stick with Joe from the time Joe landed in SF until the time Bill left? One of Bill Walsh's first moves was drafting Montana. And Montana was his starting quarterback from the minute Steve DeBerg went down in 1980 until Bill Walsh left in 1988 after winning his 3rd superbowl wit Joe Montana. 

In the 10 years that Bill Walsh coached the Niners, he drafted exactly ONE other QB. Scott Barry in the 6th round in 1985. He didn't bring in Steve Young until Montana, at 30 years old, broke his back and his ability to continue to play football long term was cast completely into doubt. Which, you are suggesting, is coincidental?

Better yet, if Bill Walsh didn't think Joe was great, and wanted to replace him, why are we hearing this from you and literally no other sources ever?

Let's do the math:
Drafted Joe Montana
Stuck with Joe Montana the entire time he coached the Niners
Won 3 Superbowls with him
Never drafted/signed/traded for a QB as anything more than a backup until Montana mangled his back and suffered a severe concussion
Did nothing but praise Montana the entire time he coached him and continued to do so the rest of his life. Calling him the "greatest QB ever."

vs

He had other QBs rated higher in the 1979 draft
He traded for Steve Young
He pulled Montana in the 3rd quarter of a playoff game in 1987

You are terrible at this. You really are. Of course Walsh thought Montana was great. Did he think Montana was great when he drafted him? Of course not. He was a rookie coming out of college. Was his mind changed over the course of nearly a decade coaching him? Yes. Without question.

He brought Steve Young in to be the eventual successor to Joe Montana. Joe Montana had just had a very serious back injury (as well as a season ending severe concussion so bad it landed him in the hospital) and the doctors did not know if Montana could return to form or even if he should return. They said if he did, he might be risking paralysis. So Walsh hedged his bets. It had absolutely nothing to do with Walsh not thinking Montana wasn't a great QB and everything to do with the fact that he knew his great QB was starting to break down and it would be prudent to find that successor sooner rather than later. 

No, that's not reasonable at all. That's absolutely ridiculous. Great QBs who are healthy and having poor games don't get pulled from a playoff game when the game is still winnable. Certainly not when their head coach thinks they're one of the greatest of all-time. Can you find any example of that happening to another great QB? 

31 is not old for a QB. Never has been, never will be. Trying to claim it is is just ludicrous. Virtually every notable QB you can name played WAY beyond 31. I listed a ton of them on another page in this very thread. Hell, for some, their careers didn't even take off until they hit 31 or so. Montana himself went on to play through the 1994 season, despite his injuries. 

You must have missed the fact that there was a QB controversy on the 49ers all throughout the 1988 season. Actions speak louder than words, and Walsh chose to pull Montana down 27-10 when they were about to get the ball on the Vikings' 35 yard line with 6:29 left to play in the 3rd quarter of a home divisional playoff game. He followed this up by putting the starting QB position up for grabs throughout the 1988 season. And there's no injury excuse here, as Montana had already proven he was fine when he played the 1987 season. 

And if QBs were breaking down at 30 back then, why did he trade for Steve Young, who was already 26? Trading for a QB who already had 3 years of experience (including USFL) is the move of someone looking to make a change in the near future. Otherwise, he would have just drafted somebody with a higher pick and let him learn for a few years. 

Drafted QBs: Dan Hartwig (1980), Joe Adams (1981), Bryan Clark (1982), Barry, whom you listed, and John Paye (1987). 

Did Walsh like Montana while he was coaching him? Sure. Did he think he was coaching some historic great? Hell no. To Walsh, a lot of quarterbacks could have a ton of success in his system. Montana was just one of them. 

And I can assure you, if you were to ask any NFL scout at the time, they would not rate Montana as highly as they rated Marino or Elway. 

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45 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

No, that's not reasonable at all. That's absolutely ridiculous. Great QBs who are healthy and having poor games don't get pulled from a playoff game when the game is still winnable. Certainly not when their head coach thinks they're one of the greatest of all-time. Can you find any example of that happening to another great QB? 

31 is not old for a QB. Never has been, never will be. Trying to claim it is is just ludicrous. Virtually every notable QB you can name played WAY beyond 31. I listed a ton of them on another page in this very thread. Hell, for some, their careers didn't even take off until they hit 31 or so. Montana himself went on to play through the 1994 season, despite his injuries. 

You must have missed the fact that there was a QB controversy on the 49ers all throughout the 1988 season. Actions speak louder than words, and Walsh chose to pull Montana down 27-10 when they were about to get the ball on the Vikings' 35 yard line with 6:29 left to play in the 3rd quarter of a home divisional playoff game. He followed this up by putting the starting QB position up for grabs throughout the 1988 season. And there's no injury excuse here, as Montana had already proven he was fine when he played the 1987 season. 

And if QBs were breaking down at 30 back then, why did he trade for Steve Young, who was already 26? Trading for a QB who already had 3 years of experience (including USFL) is the move of someone looking to make a change in the near future. Otherwise, he would have just drafted somebody with a higher pick and let him learn for a few years. 

Drafted QBs: Dan Hartwig (1980), Joe Adams (1981), Bryan Clark (1982), Barry, whom you listed, and John Paye (1987). 

Did Walsh like Montana while he was coaching him? Sure. Did he think he was coaching some historic great? Hell no. To Walsh, a lot of quarterbacks could have a ton of success in his system. Montana was just one of them. 

And I can assure you, if you were to ask any NFL scout at the time, they would not rate Montana as highly as they rated Marino or Elway. 

Sorry. I didnt look for any QBs outside of 7 rounds. Clearly Walsh was doing his best to replace Montana with those picks. Who, put together, amount to a total of zero NFL snaps in their entire combined careers.

If your coach doesnt think you are great, why doesnt he try to replace you until you are 30 years old and coming off a mangled back and a season ending concussion? Why does he spend his entire time coaching that team coaching that ONE QB without making any attempt to replace him until he is broken?

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13 minutes ago, NFLExpert49 said:

No, that's not reasonable at all. That's absolutely ridiculous. Great QBs who are healthy and having poor games don't get pulled from a playoff game when the game is still winnable. Certainly not when their head coach thinks they're one of the greatest of all-time. Can you find any example of that happening to another great QB? 

31 is not old for a QB. Never has been, never will be. Trying to claim it is is just ludicrous. Virtually every notable QB you can name played WAY beyond 31. I listed a ton of them on another page in this very thread. Hell, for some, their careers didn't even take off until they hit 31 or so. Montana himself went on to play through the 1994 season, despite his injuries. 

You must have missed the fact that there was a QB controversy on the 49ers all throughout the 1988 season. Actions speak louder than words, and Walsh chose to pull Montana down 27-10 when they were about to get the ball on the Vikings' 35 yard line with 6:29 left to play in the 3rd quarter of a home divisional playoff game. He followed this up by putting the starting QB position up for grabs throughout the 1988 season. And there's no injury excuse here, as Montana had already proven he was fine when he played the 1987 season. 

And if QBs were breaking down at 30 back then, why did he trade for Steve Young, who was already 26? Trading for a QB who already had 3 years of experience (including USFL) is the move of someone looking to make a change in the near future. Otherwise, he would have just drafted somebody with a higher pick and let him learn for a few years. 

Drafted QBs: Dan Hartwig (1980), Joe Adams (1981), Bryan Clark (1982), Barry, whom you listed, and John Paye (1987). 

Did Walsh like Montana while he was coaching him? Sure. Did he think he was coaching some historic great? Hell no. To Walsh, a lot of quarterbacks could have a ton of success in his system. Montana was just one of them. 

And I can assure you, if you were to ask any NFL scout at the time, they would not rate Montana as highly as they rated Marino or Elway. 

And I said 30 was when QBs... typically... started to... break down. Meaning it doesn't happen to everyone, just most. Aaaaand it's the beginning of when they start to break down. Not that theyre broken down by then.

So showing me a list of anomalies (Tarkenton), situationals (Roger Staubach didnt start playing in the NFL until he was 27, Jurgenson was a backup for his last 5 seasons), QBs that actually started breaking down around 30 (like Roman Gabriel and Marino... had you added him) and players that played until they were 34 or 35 really doesnt do much to bolster your argument.

Every coach knew, and every fan knew, that once a QB hit 30, he was on the downside of his career. After 30 they started getting dinged up more and they started to recover more slowly. 



 

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