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A Song of Ice and Fire


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Until I read it in a book, I am not taking anything that the show does as a fact of the A Song of Ice and Fire story.   The last episode even had to say that Jon Snow doesn't look like Eddard Stark.  WTF? That is one of his defining characteristics.  Part of the reason that Catelyn resents Jon is that he looks more like Eddard than her children do.

TBH, I hope it has taken George so long to write this book because he decided to make Jon be permanently dead.  The savior, secret king, protagonist is so cliche it makes me sick.  Keep him dead George.  Aegon is the rightful king anyway.

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2 minutes ago, DavidatMIZZOU said:

Until I read it in a book, I am not taking anything that the show does as a fact of the A Song of Ice and Fire story.   The last episode even had to say that Jon Snow doesn't look like Eddard Stark.  WTF? That is one of his defining characteristics.  Part of the reason that Catelyn resents Jon is that he looks more like Eddard than her children do.

TBH, I hope it has taken George so long to write this book because he decided to make Jon be permanently dead.  The savior, secret king, protagonist is so cliche it makes me sick.  Keep him dead George.  Aegon is the rightful king anyway.

Even if he's a Blackfyre and not a Targ? ;)

 

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There is no evidence that Aegon is not who he claims to be, other than people wanting Jon and Daenerys (and some of them Tyrion) to be king and queen and live happily ever after with dragons, and rainbows, and hobbits, and pixies, and free ice cream.  There are 3 things people point to when dismissing Aegon.

1.  Tyrion thinks he is 15 or 16, when Aegon should be 18.  Tyrion is also a drunk that is trying to figure out where the whores go, and aside from not being a complete monster to the Starks, a pretty bad judge of people and situations.

2.  Daenerys' prophesy warning about "the mummer's dragon." People take this to mean that Aegon is not a real dragon.  What if the mummer is Varys (he was) and the dragon is real? She needs to beware of this threat because he is already staking the Targaryen claim in Westeros (a better claim) and those who would join the Targaryens will have thrown in with Aegon.

3.  Aegon has the Golden Company who were Blackfyre supporters.  Were any of the current members of the Golden Company around for the Blackfyre rebellions? Their leader, Jon Connington, was a Targaryen loyalist in Robert's Rebellion.  He was also very close to Rhaegar and is awed by Aegon's similarity to his father.  Many of the Golden Company are displaced lords looking to get either their family lands back, or see a great opportunity to carve out a piece of Westeros for their service to the new king.

 

I just re-read the series because I have an idea about Varys.  Which knowing the full scope of the books, I payed close attention to the early Illyrio parts and all of the Aegon parts.  What is given in the book leaves no evidence that Aegon is not exactly who he claims to be.  He very well may be a Blackfyre, or less, just a silver haired, purple eyed, good looking young man; but there is no evidence presented in the story to substantiate those claims.

 

 

Also, my idea about Varys.  I was looking for specific evidence that he is a eunuch.  There is none.  All the people that talk of Varys know two things: Not to trust Varys, and that he is a eunuch.  But they know he is a eunuch because he says he is a eunuch.  He is also pretty good at disguises.  Arya, Tyrion, Tobho Motte, and whomever hired "Rugen," were all fooled.  Only Shae seemed to discover his disguise, though we don't know if she knew the entire time or not.

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Pretty sure Jon is Aegon though...

There's a reason why the show didn't let you hear what Lyanna told Ned the baby's name was.  The baby's name wasn't Jon; Ned changed Aegon to Jon. 

I just wonder if Varys somehow knows that in the books when he says Aegon is alive before he kills Kevan. 

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1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Pretty sure Jon is Aegon though...

There's a reason why the show didn't let you hear what Lyanna told Ned the baby's name was.  The baby's name wasn't Jon; Ned changed Aegon to Jon. 

I just wonder if Varys somehow knows that in the books when he says Aegon is alive before he kills Kevan. 

I'm not following this. 

He said that Aegon is alive because Aegon in the books who has landed at Storm's end is supposedly the baby that was killed in king's landing. Aegon had already been born when Jon was born. They were separate people. So unless you're saying that there are two Aegon's who were children of Rhaegar (Jon and the original baby Aegon).  I've also heard the scuttle about Jon's actual name being Jaehaerys, not Aegon. Right now, we don't know what his actual name is. 

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Just now, Forge said:

I'm not following this. 

He said that Aegon is alive because Aegon in the books who has landed at Storm's end is supposedly the baby that was killed in king's landing. Aegon had already been born when Jon was born. They were separate people. So unless you're saying that there are two Aegon's who were children of Rhaegar (Jon and the original baby Aegon).  I've also heard the scuttle about Jon's actual name being Jaehaerys, not Aegon. Right now, we don't know what his actual name is. 

I don't remember exactly what Varys said when he killed Kevan.  I'm just speculating that Varys knows who Jon is and that's why he killed Kevan because he's going to go all in on Jon and the other Aegon is just a red herring. 

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1 hour ago, DavidatMIZZOU said:

There is no evidence that Aegon is not who he claims to be, other than people wanting Jon and Daenerys (and some of them Tyrion) to be king and queen and live happily ever after with dragons, and rainbows, and hobbits, and pixies, and free ice cream.  There are 3 things people point to when dismissing Aegon.

1.  Tyrion thinks he is 15 or 16, when Aegon should be 18.  Tyrion is also a drunk that is trying to figure out where the whores go, and aside from not being a complete monster to the Starks, a pretty bad judge of people and situations.

2.  Daenerys' prophesy warning about "the mummer's dragon." People take this to mean that Aegon is not a real dragon.  What if the mummer is Varys (he was) and the dragon is real? She needs to beware of this threat because he is already staking the Targaryen claim in Westeros (a better claim) and those who would join the Targaryens will have thrown in with Aegon.

3.  Aegon has the Golden Company who were Blackfyre supporters.  Were any of the current members of the Golden Company around for the Blackfyre rebellions? Their leader, Jon Connington, was a Targaryen loyalist in Robert's Rebellion.  He was also very close to Rhaegar and is awed by Aegon's similarity to his father.  Many of the Golden Company are displaced lords looking to get either their family lands back, or see a great opportunity to carve out a piece of Westeros for their service to the new king.

 

I just re-read the series because I have an idea about Varys.  Which knowing the full scope of the books, I payed close attention to the early Illyrio parts and all of the Aegon parts.  What is given in the book leaves no evidence that Aegon is not exactly who he claims to be.  He very well may be a Blackfyre, or less, just a silver haired, purple eyed, good looking young man; but there is no evidence presented in the story to substantiate those claims.

 

 

Also, my idea about Varys.  I was looking for specific evidence that he is a eunuch.  There is none.  All the people that talk of Varys know two things: Not to trust Varys, and that he is a eunuch.  But they know he is a eunuch because he says he is a eunuch.  He is also pretty good at disguises.  Arya, Tyrion, Tobho Motte, and whomever hired "Rugen," were all fooled.  Only Shae seemed to discover his disguise, though we don't know if she knew the entire time or not.

I always took the "mummer's dragon" to mean the person that Vary's is repping, so I'm actually with you on point #2. 

We don't know enough about the Golden Company to really make any assumptions about how they are operating at this point. I don't think anyone current were around for the Blackfyre rebellions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they no longer strive for that. It's also not impossible that they are still led by the "Blackfyres" (on the female side, of course). So we can't really say for sure what their reasons are for joining Aegon at this point. The Connington point is valid...the only real counter I could have to that is that he's being lied to by Illyrio and Varys. 

Hadn't thought about the Varys thing and not really being a eunuch. 

 

My biggest issue with Aegon being Aegon is really just from a literary point of view. To me, it makes no sense to incorporate it into the story that way. I mean, still early to tell on that because there is little information, so I"m not sure how it ties together, and maybe he has something very good planned, but I think from a writing perspective, it makes way more sense to have him be a Blackfyre rather than an actual Targaryen. But as I said, too early. He could very easily have a way in which this all ties together where he's really baby Aegon that I haven't thought of that makes all the sense in the world. 

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57 minutes ago, Forge said:

I always took the "mummer's dragon" to mean the person that Vary's is repping, so I'm actually with you on point #2. 

We don't know enough about the Golden Company to really make any assumptions about how they are operating at this point. I don't think anyone current were around for the Blackfyre rebellions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they no longer strive for that. It's also not impossible that they are still led by the "Blackfyres" (on the female side, of course). So we can't really say for sure what their reasons are for joining Aegon at this point. The Connington point is valid...the only real counter I could have to that is that he's being lied to by Illyrio and Varys. 

Hadn't thought about the Varys thing and not really being a eunuch. 

 

My biggest issue with Aegon being Aegon is really just from a literary point of view. To me, it makes no sense to incorporate it into the story that way. I mean, still early to tell on that because there is little information, so I"m not sure how it ties together, and maybe he has something very good planned, but I think from a writing perspective, it makes way more sense to have him be a Blackfyre rather than an actual Targaryen. But as I said, too early. He could very easily have a way in which this all ties together where he's really baby Aegon that I haven't thought of that makes all the sense in the world. 

We have had 2 instances of swapped children in the book. One being the children that Theon burned at Winterfell. The other is actually very appropriate, being the swapping of Gilly's child with the infant son of Mance Rayder. There may be others, but those could definitely be used to set up precedence for saving Aegon as a baby (although not necessarily why Rhaenys was not saved).

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That was worded extremely poorly, let me try again... 

 

Jon sets up an ice and fire baby swap.  Gilly and Craster's son was to be given to the others.  He is to be claimed by ice.  Mance and Dalla's (IIRC) son will likely be claimed for the fires by Melisandre.

 

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1 hour ago, skywlker32 said:

We have had 2 instances of swapped children in the book. One being the children that Theon burned at Winterfell. The other is actually very appropriate, being the swapping of Gilly's child with the infant son of Mance Rayder. There may be others, but those could definitely be used to set up precedence for saving Aegon as a baby (although not necessarily why Rhaenys was not saved).

That's exactly the reason I hate it from a literary perspective. How many times are you going to dip into that well. Don't forget that there's also the Mance swap as well. That's a lot of swapping going around in this book and at some point, it's just too much. Plus, I don't get why you introduce him this late into the series if that's the case. He would be the rightful heir. The delayed introduction to me makes more sense if he's actually a Blackfyre and to me, thats much more of a curveball then yet another swap.

The Aegon being Aegon thing is just something I don't like, so I"m hoping it's not true and prefer to subscribe to the Aegon = Blackfyre theory.  Similar to R + L, it has a lot circumstantial evidence that points to him being a Blackfyre, and I like the idea that he's been planting all of this for quite some time with purpose.  

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I'm still sticking with the theory that "Aegon" is the son of Varys' sister, and that they are all Blackfyre's from the one mentioned in the books that pretty much slept his way through all the whores in the cities of Essos.  There's more to it than that, but I haven't read the books in years now so it's not as clear to me.  The gist of it is Varys is a Blackfyre and "Aegon" is his nephew.  It's why he is always shaved bald, he's got the Targ/Blackfyre hair.

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