Broncos QB Battle - Siemian it is

[broncos67]

What nice play did Paxton have? I must have missed it. They're trying to talk themselves into Lynch starting and the reality is, it ain't there. That's one way to lose the lockerroom quickly, that's for sure.

[Broncofan]

39 minutes ago, broncos67 said:

What nice play did Paxton have? I must have missed it. They're trying to talk themselves into Lynch starting and the reality is, it ain't there. That's one way to lose the lockerroom quickly, that's for sure.

I'll be kind and say it was coach speak for the public.  John Harbaugh did the same for Ryan Mallett who was just as bad (hard to imagine I know) saying he played "winning football".   Mainly to deflect Kaepernick rumors there given the risk Flacco will miss time.  SMH.  

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000828511/article/harbaugh-on-ryan-mallett-he-played-winning-football - so it appears VJ is taking the "public PR spin" angle of the player's coach (like Harbaugh) rather than challenge them in public...for now.  Which is fine, as long as the staff don't really believe this is still a neck-and-neck competition.  Lynch showed last year and so far this year he's not ready.   It's one thing to have 1 bad game, but this falls in line with all of Lynch's weaknesses last year, over and over.   I don't know how one half vs. a vanilla D is going to make anyone feel OK he's made the leap, TBH.

But yeah, back to the game comments - anyone who saw the game can see through the coach speak.  What matters is the tune VJ is singing in the locker room.  It had better be a lot more honest and direct.  

[bMiller031]

I was very discouraged by Paxton yesterday. Not every franchise quarterback has the tools of a first round pick- but I can't remember a franchise quarterback (even early in their career) look as skittish as Paxton has looked thus far. Paxton seems to be void in poise and gritty-ness, two traits that Super Bowl quarterbacks rarely lack. 

To me, if you remove the draft pick tags on both guys, it's impossible to make a case for Lynch over Siemian this season. Siemian is steady but unspectacular while Lynch is spectacular physically but wildly inconsistent. In any other circumstance, without our rationale clouded by our familiarity, we would immediately choose to pair this defense with unspectacular dependability over a wildly inconsistent, superbly talented 1st rounder who struggles after the first progression. 

 

Hypotheticals:

Suppose the names were different, a team otherwise Super Bowl ready (Bengals/Texans/etc.) have two QBs battling for the starting gig this season. One quarterback has experience demonstrating (at least) passable game-manager abilities, the other is a (young) former 1st rounder that (other than the physical abilities that made him a first round pick) hasn't shown anything justifying his consideration. We wouldn't even think twice, would we? 

Which quarterback is LESS likely to allow first-half miscues and errors to effect his play on a 3rd down in the fourth quarter at Arrowhead in December?

Which quarterback would you rather have jogging onto the field with 6 minutes to go in the fourth quarter and a 3-point lead? 

Which quarterback would you rather have at the helm when the team's morale is at its lowest point of the season?

Which quarterback would you rather have in a battle of great defenses? 

Which quarterback would you rather have the Monday after a disappointing Sunday night divisional loss early in the season?

 

These questions weren't too difficult to answer. One quarterback has made his way into the discussion in-spite of his draft status and one has made it into the discussion BECAUSE of his draft status. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

4 hours ago, Broncofan said:

	Troy Renck (@TroyRenck)
8/10/17, 11:32 PM #Broncos joseph said no decision on QBs. Likely after next gym.And said Sloter not in mix for starter's job or 2nd team reps @DenverChannel pic.twitter.com/QH4oaZmeBp

	Troy Renck (@TroyRenck)
8/10/17, 11:26 PM #Broncos VJ "trevor was solid. Paxton had nice plays but penalties hurt" @DenverChannel

I totally support the point that you wait for another game before deciding and I know that the HC should support his guys in public.   But there's also a point where you have to hold people accountable.   This is one of those times for VJ.

Lynch completed 3 of the 4 completions on 6-7 yard hitches.  He missed horribly on 3-4 throws and had happy feet and eyes down when pressure came.  Saying penalties were the issue is a smoke screen everyone can see through.  If VJ wanted to say our pass pro didn't help and needs to get better ok.  But holding players accountable where they need to improve better be happening in the locker room if it's not in public (which I understand if it's just PR coachspeak). 

I hope Vance is more than just holding accountable I hope he's reading the riot act. The play last night, up and down the field and across all units, was wholly unaccpetable. The national media is projecting us to finish with 6 or 7 wins and in last place in the AFCW. After last night those predictions look much better than the 11-5, 12-4 and 13-3 predictions I've heard from the brown-nosing local media. 

[Broncofan]

1 minute ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I hope Vance is more than just holding accountable I hope he's reading the riot act. The play last night, up and down the field and across all units, was wholly unaccpetable. The national media is projecting us to finish with 6 or 7 wins and in last place in the AFCW. After last night those predictions look much better than the 11-5, 12-4 and 13-3 predictions I've heard from the brown-nosing local media. 

As long as he's doing it behind closed doors, great.  I will say he holds some responsibility here too by his decision to play the starting OL only for 2 drives.   That's fine when you have an established unit, but we're far from that.  You can't follow the CW and save them for Week 3.  We need to see everyone but Paradis for significant time next week.  Hopefully he adjusts there with Davidson.  Watching Dillon Day for 3+ quarters was nuts.  

But yeah, Lynch should be told plainly he's far behind.   And the LG/DE candidates should be told no way they can keep that level of play up next week, or any week, and expect to start on a NFL team, let alone a team that wants to contend.

[Broncofan]

Klis's take:  

http://www.9news.com/mobile/article/amp/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/next-day-observation-of-broncos-preseason-game-vs-bears/463696294

 

At least he saw what everyone else did - Lynch was nowhere near ready to start last night.  

 

[AnAngryAmerican]

I've come to the conclusion that, at this points, it's futile to continue ahead with the plan of letting Paxton practice with the ones all week and then against the Niners and start next week's game. They need to just announce Siemian as the starter for week 1 and get him out there to use the next month to build chemistry with the No. 1 offense. Any further delay in this will hurt us come the regular season. 

[Broncofan]

6 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I've come to the conclusion that, at this points, it's futile to continue ahead with the plan of letting Paxton practice with the ones all week and then against the Niners and start next week's game. They need to just announce Siemian as the starter for week 1 and get him out there to use the next month to build chemistry with the No. 1 offense. Any further delay in this will hurt us come the regular season. 

TBH, I think most anyone who saw last night's game, and last year's game, will come to that conclusion as well.  It's just impossible to think Lynch will progress in 1 week to alleviate the concerns that all of last year, then last night, showed.  Anyone can have 1 bad game, but this is part of a repeated pattern, into a skill set weakness we all recognized going into 2017, and which had no signs of improvement at season's end last year.  

I'm not going as far as those who want to call Lynch a flat out bust - a project like he was coming out of that Memphis O, 2 years was a very possible timetable needed.  So there's still long-term hope, who knows, maybe it could even be midseason hope.  But there is literally zero Week 1 hope here.  It would be crazy to think otherwise.   

The problem is that VJ and Elway committed to a 2-game trial.   The right move is to recognize when it won't work.  Don't know if they will change course though.

[thebestever6]

You guys are geting ridiculous lol. If we remove draft position this is Trevors job to lose. Vances was just speaking coach speak?

Like the fact of the matter is neither qbs performed well last night. So how can we sit her with illusions of grandeur and say that Siemian seized the job lynch shouldn't see the field?

They both played poorly Siemian is captian check down on third and long.Lynch was erratic and never got comfortable but he was mobile. I just wished we honed his mobility to keep his eyes down field.

I agree Lynch dissapointed last night. But honestly Trevor to me was just as dissapointing as bad as lynch was. I don't see this gap in play that Trevor Siemian possesses. 

I have to see another game if lynch shows me anything. Or improves some what from this game. Im on board with him moving forward. Because I know what I have in Trevor. And point blank it's not enough.

Lynch Is still raw. So how bought we see him 16 games and have these offensive gurus do their job and make players better. 

[thebestever6]

4 hours ago, bMiller031 said:

I was very discouraged by Paxton yesterday. Not every franchise quarterback has the tools of a first round pick- but I can't remember a franchise quarterback (even early in their career) look as skittish as Paxton has looked thus far. Paxton seems to be void in poise and gritty-ness, two traits that Super Bowl quarterbacks rarely lack. 

To me, if you remove the draft pick tags on both guys, it's impossible to make a case for Lynch over Siemian this season. Siemian is steady but unspectacular while Lynch is spectacular physically but wildly inconsistent. In any other circumstance, without our rationale clouded by our familiarity, we would immediately choose to pair this defense with unspectacular dependability over a wildly inconsistent, superbly talented 1st rounder who struggles after the first progression. 

 

Hypotheticals:

Suppose the names were different, a team otherwise Super Bowl ready (Bengals/Texans/etc.) have two QBs battling for the starting gig this season. One quarterback has experience demonstrating (at least) passable game-manager abilities, the other is a (young) former 1st rounder that (other than the physical abilities that made him a first round pick) hasn't shown anything justifying his consideration. We wouldn't even think twice, would we? 

Which quarterback is LESS likely to allow first-half miscues and errors to effect his play on a 3rd down in the fourth quarter at Arrowhead in December?

Which quarterback would you rather have jogging onto the field with 6 minutes to go in the fourth quarter and a 3-point lead? 

Which quarterback would you rather have at the helm when the team's morale is at its lowest point of the season?

Which quarterback would you rather have in a battle of great defenses? 

Which quarterback would you rather have the Monday after a disappointing Sunday night divisional loss early in the season?

 

These questions weren't too difficult to answer. One quarterback has made his way into the discussion in-spite of his draft status and one has made it into the discussion BECAUSE of his draft status. 

I don't want either of these qbs doing any of those. Picking between them is like picking which ******** I wanna lose.

 

My hypothetical for you is would you rather be 5 and 11 at worst potentially with a qb who has talent. And set yourself up for a qb in next year's draft which is loaded. Or would you rather be in qb Purgatory like the texans have done for years? That only just ended because they traded 2 firsts for Watson?

Trevor Siemian is Brian Hoyer, Ryan Fitzpatrick anyone who has ever led the texans to mediocre success.

[thebestever6]

I think lynch has flaws no doubt. I think he needs to get through his reads quicker, and remain calm in the pocket.

 

Problem Is sitting the bench will not fix those flaws he needs live game reps in order to do it. Now we brought in Musgrave who is a qb whisperer and have an offense to fit his skill sets.

Let me be clear I'm at the point now that no qb on the roster has earn the starting qb position. I mean that is I don't think either qb has earned a job to lead this team to the playoffs. So I think going with the hire upside guy who if he works out his kinks can be something. It has more to do in my lack of faith in siemian than it is belief in Lynch.

 

Watching Trevor play is like ground hog day,you know the end result. 

[Broncofan]

49 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I don't want either of these qbs doing any of those. Picking between them is like picking which ******** I wanna lose.

 

My hypothetical for you is would you rather be 5 and 11 at worst potentially with a qb who has talent. And set yourself up for a qb in next year's draft which is loaded. Or would you rather be in qb Purgatory like the texans have done for years? That only just ended because they traded 2 firsts for Watson?

Trevor Siemian is Brian Hoyer, Ryan Fitzpatrick anyone who has ever led the texans to mediocre success.

That logic is so bad it hurts.   5-11 isn't going to happen with this D.   Getting a top 5 pick to get a top QB is a pipe dream when teams like the Browns, 49ers and Jets are clearly tanking for QB.  

MOST importantly, Elway isn't trying to tank for this year.  By your logic, we should go with the QB that offers a bust potential of 5-11?  By your own argument.  That's also something that Elway's never starting a year off with as the goal, not with this D.  If our season is in the tank, then Elway's not a fool - but he's not thinking next year's draft with who he chooses as QB.   He's thinking about who can get him to the playoffs this year with this D.   And on that count it's who helps win now - and that's Siemian.

You're confusing physical talents with being ready to actually play at an NFL level.  We all get Lynch has the physical gifts.  But he's nowhere near ready.   To be that bad as last night after having all offseason to prepare, and to be as bad as he was last year, he's still got hope for the future - but in 4 weeks?  Sorry, even the biggest proponents for Elway's 2-week trial like Klis are already recognizing this  The first stage of grief is denial, the last stage is acceptance.   Right now, it's just a question of at what stage the fanbase is at for Lynch's early 2017 prospects.

For all of your statements of people closing the book on Lynch too soon (which I agree is premature for calling him a flat out bust, 2 years is an acceptable learning curve for a raw project, that 5th year option is crucial to justify it), you're doing the exact same with Siemian in his development.  He doesn't offer the ceiling that Lynch does - but he's already at a level far past Lynch right now, and any improvement only helps us get to the 10-6 mark we need to entertain playoffs.  And while I'd love it if Lynch is good enough to pass Siemian's current level, the timeframe to get to week 1, it's just not there or even remotely close.    And given our need to get out to a fast start with 5 out of 6 games at home, the clear answer if Elway is thinking 2017, well it's Siemian, and it's not close.  I say the above as someone who doesn't think the book is closed on Lynch long-term...but 4 weeks isn't long term.  Take it FWIW.

[bMiller031]

45 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I don't want either of these qbs doing any of those. Picking between them is like picking which ******** I wanna lose.

 

My hypothetical for you is would you rather be 5 and 11 at worst potentially with a qb who has talent. And set yourself up for a qb in next year's draft which is loaded. Or would you rather be in qb Purgatory like the texans have done for years? That only just ended because they traded 2 firsts for Watson?

Trevor Siemian is Brian Hoyer, Ryan Fitzpatrick anyone who has ever led the texans to mediocre success.

I'm not as low on Siemian as you are. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that he can be a perennial Pro-Bowler but there's no reason to believe that he can't improve upon his performance last year. He was the quarterback of a 9-7 team with an offensive line that couldn't stop a parked car. 

What we need out of the QB spot this year is dependability and consistency. If there is one knock on Siemian, it is that he is TOO steady. I'd much rather have mundane, consistent, bland, dependability than whatever Lynch has shown himself to be so far. 

[thebestever6]

2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

That logic is so bad it hurts.   5-11 isn't going to happen with this D.   Getting a top 5 pick to get a top QB is a pipe dream when teams like the Browns, 49ers and Jets are clearly tanking for QB.  

MOST importantly, Elway isn't trying to tank for this year.  By your logic, we should go with the QB that offers a bust potential of 5-11?  By your own argument

You're confusing physical talents with being ready to actually play at an NFL level.  We all get Lynch has the physical gifts.  But he's nowhere near ready.   To be that bad as last night after having all offseason to prepare, and to be as bad as he was last year, he's still got hope for the future - but in 4 weeks?  Sorry, even the biggest proponents for Elway's 2-week trial like Klis are already recognizing this  The first stage of grief is denial, the last stage is acceptance.   Right now, it's just a question of at what stage the fanbase is at for Lynch's early 2017 prospects.

For all of your statements of people closing the book on Lynch too soon (which I agree is premature for calling him a flat out bust, 2 years is an acceptable learning curve for a raw project, that 5th year option is crucial to justify it), you're doing the exact same with Siemian in his development.  He doesn't offer the ceiling that Lynch does - but he's already at a level far past Lynch, and any improvement only helps us get to the 10-6 mark we need to entertain playoffs.  And while I'd love it if Lynch is good enough to pass Siemian's current level, the timeframe to get to week 1, it's just not there.    And given our need to get out to a fast start with 5 out of 6 games at home, the clear answer if Elway is thinking 2017, well it's Siemian, and it's not close.  I say the above as someone who doesn't think the book is closed on Lynch long-term...but 4 weeks isn't long term.  Take it FWIW.

He isn't good to pass Siemians level what has Trevor done? Last night what did he do besides make some check down throws? If Siemian was at some crazy level I'd completely agree. 

 

[BroncoBruin]

Paxton does need the reps, but with a talented team around him he's really in no position to earn them with Siemian healthy. Conflict of win-now vs. win from now on on full display. Right now, the team would take 2016 Siemian and hope the offense around him is improved. With Siemian, the hope is you can do enough to sneak into a playoff spot, and then hope the defense catches fire again for 3-4 games. I do think the team is marginally improved overall from last year and they were 9-7, so all is not lost with the game manager in Siemian. Lynch is a really tough sell as bad as he's looked, his play could really tank the entire team. The 2015 Broncos defense might not be enough to carry Lynch to a playoff spot.