***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[diamondbull424]

15 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

I think Thanos got his point across when he was talking about his philosophy to Gamora and Dr. Strange. He described his planet Titan and how there were too many mouths to feed to go along with too few resources. His ideas for genocide were rejected by the larger majority of society. This caused his species to die out as a result. The story of Infinity War isn't about how Titan fell. The bigger picture if of how Thanos believes the universe needs cleansing is. 

Kind of like how in the Matrix I didn't need to see how humanity was wiped out due to their own creations. That movie wasn't about that story. It just helped set the framework for what the real story was. 

I heard a lot of stuff was taken out of the film and left on the cutting room floor. Probably due to time constraints, not vital to the story being told, or it just messed with the pacing. Maybe footage of the fallout on Titans was something that was cut, but I'd be surprised. It all worked for me.

The Matrix isn't the best example. We have enough pop culture info to create a picture of what happened.

What’s more, what happened to humanity in the past is not actually relevant to the character development or the motivations of our heroes or villains. What is relevant is that our villains need humans to remain asleep to continue to feed off of them. We SEE them feeding. We SEE their attempt to police the system. Our heroes motivations are to be woke so they can rescue humanity from the machines. We SEE these motivations in how desperate a circumstance humanity finds itself within. We can see this with OUR world being the before and their world being the after. We SEE how they live in their world and we have intimate knowledge of how we live in our world. Thus we are the bridge that connects the relevance.

But Titan is a random planet out in space. We don’t know the cultures or principles of these otherworldly inhabitants. What’s more our villain has his motivations somehow extracted from this circumstance. It’s such an important inspiration for him that he would be willing to wipe away entire worlds to restore the balance.

But we never discover WHAT Thanos lost due to his inaction and WHO he was before this moment. Was he a pragmatic scientist, a father, a husband, a brother? Did he lose someone he cared about? 

All of these questions are an important aspect of building a 3 dimensional character. To go back to the Matrix we know that Agent Smith was a simple program. We know that he begins to evolve past his initial program directive and begins to despise humans. He think of them as a virus, a cancer, and thinks of machines (but really himself as he begins to see himself as a god) as the cure.

We know that for him to fulfill his destiny he must break free of the comfortable constraints of his program in order to fulfill his righteous path. But this is also a big deal for him because he is a program with a different directive. We SEE this when he pulls off his ear peace to talk to Morpheus without his brethren hearing him. We SEE this when they come back in and ask why he’s without his ear peace and he feels the need to lie. We SEE his god complex when he jumps inside his fellow programs to corrupt them to his POV. This is a complex villain.

Thanos, hasn’t this same depth of character. We know his motivations, but we don’t know what he was before his righteous motivations became his purpose. What he was to what he became is what makes him most relatable.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

2 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

The Matrix isn't the best example. We have enough pop culture info to create a picture of what happened.

What’s more, what happened to humanity in the past is not actually relevant to the character development or the motivations of our heroes or villains. What is relevant is that our villains need humans to remain asleep to continue to feed off of them. We SEE them feeding. We SEE their attempt to police the system. Our heroes motivations are to be woke so they can rescue humanity from the machines. We SEE these motivations in how desperate a circumstance humanity finds itself within. We can see this with OUR world being the before and their world being the after. We SEE how they live in their world and we have intimate knowledge of how we live in our world. Thus we are the bridge that connects the relevance.

But Titan is a random planet out in space. We don’t know the cultures or principles of these otherworldly inhabitants. What’s more our villain has his motivations somehow extracted from this circumstance. It’s such an important inspiration for him that he would be willing to wipe away entire worlds to restore the balance.

But we never discover WHAT Thanos lost due to his inaction and WHO he was before this moment. Was he a pragmatic scientist, a father, a husband, a brother? Did he lose someone he cared about? 

All of these questions are an important aspect of building a 3 dimensional character. To go back to the Matrix we know that Agent Smith was a simple program. We know that he begins to evolve past his initial program directive and begins to despise humans. He think of them as a virus, a cancer, and thinks of machines (but really himself as he begins to see himself as a god) as the cure.

We know that for him to fulfill his destiny he must break free of the comfortable constraints of his program in order to fulfill his righteous path. But this is also a big deal for him because he is a program with a different directive. We SEE this when he pulls off his ear peace to talk to Morpheus without his brethren hearing him. We SEE this when they come back in and ask why he’s without his ear peace and he feels the need to lie. We SEE his god complex when he jumps inside his fellow programs to corrupt them to his POV. This is a complex villain.

Thanos, hasn’t this same depth of character. We know his motivations, but we don’t know what he was before his righteous motivations became his purpose. What he was to what he became is what makes him most relatable.

I feel like I have enough pop culture information and previous fictional stories to envision what happened on Titan without it having to be shown to me visually. Krypton pops into my head. 

So if you wanted to see all of what you think is required for Thanos and his importance to the narrative, what would you have traded in the film for it? Or how much time would you add? How many more characters would you want? Keep in mind you have about 20+ people involved in the film already who all need a decent amount of screen time. Then were would be pacing issues, which I already thought were being juggled extensively with how many places we are shown with various groups. What you're describing sounds like a completely separate film on it's own accord. The run time is already 2 hours and 40 minutes. 

I understand if you yourself wanted to see more of Thanos' personal history to further flesh out his character motivations. For me it was pretty clear though, and for the story that the Russo brothers wanted to film, and the constraints they were dealing with, I didn't find that much backstory necessary to get a clear idea of what motivates him. I got inside his head with what was provided and described in film. Another example for me is Star Wars. Definitely didn't need to see any of the prequel stories to get the ideas and points that were pointed out to me when I saw the original films when they referenced past events and the ramifications it had on certain characters. 

Maybe you'll get that Thanos origin story you need though *shrugs*

Edited May 5, 2018 by PapaShogun

[UKTexans]

4 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

But we never discover WHAT Thanos lost due to his inaction and WHO he was before this moment. Was he a pragmatic scientist, a father, a husband, a brother? Did he lose someone he cared about? 

I mean there's a part two

[RuskieTitan]

On 5/4/2018 at 2:04 AM, Manny/Patrick said:

http://www.didthanoskill.me/

 

Guys I don’t feel so go..

You were spared by Thanos.

Now yall gotta deal with me and this unchangeable text on mobile!

[ET80]

13 hours ago, RaidersAreOne said:

I haven't seen it yet, but I already know what happens from all the spoilers on every page ever.

Yeah dude, you gotta go underground to avoid spoilers nowadays.

Bruce Willis was dead the whole time.

[Calvert28]

14 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

I've seen the movie twice. I mean, I saw him basically get a drug high when he acquired a couple more of the stones, but I didn't take that as him utilizing the stones' abilities. 

So explain to me the scene as he puts the mind stone into the gauntlet and goes all colors of the rainbow. If the gauntlet only works when he closes his fist why would that happen?

[TecmoSuperJoe]

20 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

So explain to me the scene as he puts the mind stone into the gauntlet and goes all colors of the rainbow. If the gauntlet only works when he closes his fist why would that happen?

I just explained it. I took it as him essentially getting a drug high of sorts since he just "upgraded". I took those scenes as the filmmakers dramatizing Thanos receiving a power boost to make it clear to the audience that he essentially leveled up or whatever. I still didn't see that as him utilizing the stones individual powers for his benefit though. 

Like I said before, Thanos couldn't use the stones when the Cloak of Levitation was wrapped around his hand, and Iron Man put a clamp in it. So there's that.

For this film, that just seemed like it was some sort of ground rule that was set. I can see someone citing inconsistencies with prior films though. Or even in this film I saw a moment when Thanos appeared to use the stones against Thor without having to close his fist. Maybe a continuity error.

Really, it's all trivial the more I think about it. Tired of caring.

[Calvert28]

41 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

I just explained it. I took it as him essentially getting a drug high of sorts since he just "upgraded". I took those scenes as the filmmakers dramatizing Thanos receiving a power boost to make it clear to the audience that he essentially leveled up or whatever. I still didn't see that as him utilizing the stones individual powers for his benefit though. 

Like I said before, Thanos couldn't use the stones when the Cloak of Levitation was wrapped around his hand, and Iron Man put a clamp in it. So there's that.

For this film, that just seemed like it was some sort of ground rule that was set. I can see someone citing inconsistencies with prior films though. Or even in this film I saw a moment when Thanos appeared to use the stones against Thor without having to close his fist. Maybe a continuity error.

Really, it's all trivial the more I think about it. Tired of caring.

Fair enough enough. Legit plot holes. I still disagree but maybe they'll 3xpand on it more in the next film.

[Calvert28]

Speaking of plot holes. Or maybe this isn't one. But the gauntlet had been around for quite a few years now roughly 10 years or so since it first appeared at the end credits with the Avengers movie. 

The dwarf who kicked the crap out of Thor claimed that Asguard was supposed to protect them but Thor claimed they couldn't because Asguard was destroyed last movie or basically at that point in time like a few days ago or so. Thanos clearly has had this gauntlet for a while now. At the very least a few years. So when the dwarf questioned Thor about the protection did Thor just tell a massive lie to get what he wanted? I know Odin and everyone had the story of putting the 9 realms back together repairing damage that Loki had done and the dark elves thing happening. But it made me curious about that being a massive time gap. Thanos had to of put the dwarves to death many years ago since it was confirmed he did it immediately after he got the gauntlet.

[diamondbull424]

11 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

I feel like I have enough pop culture information and previous fictional stories to envision what happened on Titan without it having to be shown to me visually. Krypton pops into my head. 

So if you wanted to see all of what you think is required for Thanos and his importance to the narrative, what would you have traded in the film for it? Or how much time would you add? How many more characters would you want? Keep in mind you have about 20+ people involved in the film already who all need a decent amount of screen time. Then were would be pacing issues, which I already thought were being juggled extensively with how many places we are shown with various groups. What you're describing sounds like a completely separate film on it's own accord. The run time is already 2 hours and 40 minutes. 

I understand if you yourself wanted to see more of Thanos' personal history to further flesh out his character motivations. For me it was pretty clear though, and for the story that the Russo brothers wanted to film, and the constraints they were dealing with, I didn't find that much backstory necessary to get a clear idea of what motivates him. I got inside his head with what was provided and described in film. Another example for me is Star Wars. Definitely didn't need to see any of the prequel stories to get the ideas and points that were pointed out to me when I saw the original films when they referenced past events and the ramifications it had on certain characters. 

Maybe you'll get that Thanos origin story you need though *shrugs*

Did they have restraints, sure. But should a professor give a student a better grade than another simply because they balance working a full time job while going to school? I don’t think he should. The work is the Work. 

I mean they CHOSE to make this movie 2 parts and not 3. They also chose the storyline. There have been adaptions of stories into other mediums where they stay true enough to the content while still creating its own authentic story. This is what I would’ve preferred. 

I would’ve preferred three movies (April 2018, Nov 2018, and May 2019). But if I was restricted to only two movies, I would’ve eliminated the full on relationship between Vision and Scarlett Witch. Thanos is the much more compelling character of the bunch and I would have chosen to remove that whole element from the film to give Thanos more. I would’ve instead replaced given subtle hints of Vision/BW’s relationship. Something like showing a close up/slow motion of SW as she touches Visions hand in a battle sequence. Or them making strong eye contact with another.

The extra 15 minutes gained could given me time to create a narrative around Thanos pre-devastation, maybe a quick montage of Thanos making his recommendations at a council of Titans. Then we see him give “Gamora’s dagger” to some other woman (somewhat resembling adult Gamora- just purple), we assume it to be his wife. We see him leave the planet on an expedition. He returns to calamity. He finds the dagger in the ruins. We see Thanos shed a tear as he retrieves it. Later on when he gives the dagger to Gamora, the item now holds a much deeper significance. The audience KNOWS it’s a sign of his adoration of her. 

What’s more I would have given the Black Order a stronger purpose. I would’ve repurposed the Black Order origin story as an elite group of Thanos’ adopted children. For each planet he judges, he adopts and raises a child, the Black Order being the most elite of those adopted children. Gamora having been his favorite and only one he’s ever truly loved. This would establish a set of values Thanos works by with regard to how he “cleanses” a planet. It establishes The Black Orders motivations as one where they seek their “fathers” appraisal/love, only to never achieve it, like Gamora.

Now we have a villain rich with motivations that have forced him to evolve into a righteous madman who seems incapable of love. We have Black Order minions with easily relatable motivations, so even though they are not individually developed, we can understand why they are so hell bent on obtaining the Infinity stones for Thanos. And lastly, when the Thanos/Gamora Soul stone incident occurs, we can truly FEEL Thanos’ pain and understand just how important his motivations are to him.

A better Thanos and Black Order backstory would easily have made this movie go from a simple C+ rating to perhaps a B+/A- status... for me.

Edited May 5, 2018 by diamondbull424

[TecmoSuperJoe]

10 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Speaking of plot holes. Or maybe this isn't one. But the gauntlet had been around for quite a few years now roughly 10 years or so since it first appeared at the end credits with the Avengers movie. 

The dwarf who kicked the crap out of Thor claimed that Asguard was supposed to protect them but Thor claimed they couldn't because Asguard was destroyed last movie or basically at that point in time like a few days ago or so. Thanos clearly has had this gauntlet for a while now. At the very least a few years. So when the dwarf questioned Thor about the protection did Thor just tell a massive lie to get what he wanted? I know Odin and everyone had the story of putting the 9 realms back together repairing damage that Loki had done and the dark elves thing happening. But it made me curious about that being a massive time gap. Thanos had to of put the dwarves to death many years ago since it was confirmed he did it immediately after he got the gauntlet.

Thanos can't invade Nidavellir because Odin, and Asgard are still around. Which is why he doesn't collect the stones sooner. He wants the Gauntlet made to house them. Once Odin dies, and Asgard is destroyed he can expedite the process. 

The thing that does screw this up somewhat is the post credits scene at the end of Avengers 2, which shows Thanos already in possession of the Gauntlet. As a viewer it's up to you to decide if that's a continuity error, or that the scene takes place at a later date, and not right after the events in the movie.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

If debating the quality of the movie is upsetting you then we might as well stop this convo here. It’s an opinion. I’ve backed my opinion up with comparisons of other movies that did a significantly better job and distinguished the difference between what Infinity War didn’t do. I will respectfully respond, but not if you continue to get emotional over a debate on personal preference and movie quality. I’ve already acknowledged my viewpoints to not be of popular opinion. You enjoy it, I don’t find that ridiculous or warped. I just see it as a preference.??‍♀️

=====

Did they have restraints, sure. But should a professor give a student a better grade than another simply because they balance working a full time job while going to school? I don’t think he should. The work is the Work. 

I mean they CHOSE to make this movie 2 parts and not 3. They also chose the storyline. There have been adaptions of stories where they stay true enough to the content while still creating its own authentic story. This is what I would’ve preferred. 

I wouldve done three movies. But if I was restricted to only two movies, I would’ve eliminated the full on relationship between Vision and Scarlett Witch. Thanos is the much more compelling character of the bunch and I would have chosen to remove that whole element from the film to give him more. I would’ve instead replaced it with subtle hints of their relationship. Something like showing a close up/slow motion of SW as she touches Visions hand in a battle sequence. Or them making strong eye contact with another.

The extra 15 minutes gained could given me time to create a narrative around Thanos pre-devastation, maybe a quick montage of Thanos making his recommendations at a council of Titans. Then we see him give “Gamora’s dagger” to some other woman (somewhat resembling adult Gamora- just purple), we assume it to be his wife. We see him leave the planet on an expedition. He returns to calamity. He finds the dagger in the ruins. We see Thanos shed a tear as he retrieves it. Later on when he gives the dagger to Gamora, the item now holds a much deeper significance. The audience KNOWS it’s a sign of his adoration of her. 

What’s more I would have given the Black Order a stronger purpose. I would’ve repurposed the Black Order origin story as an elite group of Thanos’ adopted children. For each planet he judges, he adopts and raises a child, the Black Order being the most elite of those adopted children. Gamora having been his favorite and only one he’s ever truly loved. This would establish a set of values Thanos works by with regard to how he “cleanses” a planet. It establishes The Black Orders motivations as one where they seek their “fathers” appraisal/love, only to never achieve it, like Gamora.

Now we have a villain rich with motivations that have forced him to evolve into a righteous madman who seems incapable of love. We have Black Order minions with easily relatable motivations, so even though they are not individually developed, we can understand why they are so hell bent on obtaining the Infinity stones for Thanos. And lastly, when the Thanos/Gamora Soul stone incident occurs, we can truly FEEL Thanos’ pain and understand just how important his motivations are to him.

A better Thanos and Black Order backstory would easily have made this movie go from a simple C+ rating to perhaps a B+/A- status... for me.

What? Not sure where you got that from. 

Edited May 5, 2018 by PapaShogun

[diamondbull424]

10 minutes ago, PapaShogun said:

What? Not sure where you got that from. 

Sorry, I must’ve read too deeply into your origin story line. I thought you meant it as sarcasm. So I apologize for that assumption.

Edited May 5, 2018 by diamondbull424

[DirtyDez]

Am I the only one burnt out on Star-Lord?  I find him annoying.  (ducks for cover)

[Calvert28]

2 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Thanos can't invade Nidavellir because Odin, and Asgard are still around. Which is why he doesn't collect the stones sooner. He wants the Gauntlet made to house them. Once Odin dies, and Asgard is destroyed he can expedite the process. 

The thing that does screw this up somewhat is the post credits scene at the end of Avengers 2, which shows Thanos already in possession of the Gauntlet. As a viewer it's up to you to decide if that's a continuity error, or that the scene takes place at a later date, and not right after the events in the movie.

That's my point. He couldn't man handle Odin while he was still alive. Maybe it was a continuity error. Otherwise that means that Asgard abandoned Nidavellir.