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***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

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19 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The FF series on reel has been a real travesty.  Not just the 4 but Silver Surfer & Doom. I get Doom was also an origin story there, so he wasn't going to be omnipotent or even close from the start, but from everything I've just read catching up as an adult really has undersold just how powerful a Black Hat he is in the Comic 'verse (as my teenage daughter wanted to read everything Civil Wars / Infinity Wars, I only caught up then).   

I really, really, REALLY hope FF is a period piece - set in the gap between the end of Agent Carter and the events of Captain Marvel. 

I really think the Four are best appreciated in the 60s/70s - and I also think we'd benefit from a pairing of the Four along with a young Howard Stark, Peggy Carter and Hank Pym while they're building the foundation of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Another thing - it wouldn't interfere with what's transpired so far. Given the events from Iron Man to IW, you'd think that somebody would think "Hey, maybe we should get Reed on the horn, see if he could figure this out..." Best way to mitigate against that would be to make them relics from the past.

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5 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I really, really, REALLY hope FF is a period piece - set in the gap between the end of Agent Carter and the events of Captain Marvel. 

I really think the Four are best appreciated in the 60s - and I also think we'd benefit from a pairing of the Four along with a young Howard Stark, Peggy Carter and Hank Pym while they're building the foundation of S.H.I.E.L.D.

It would certainly fit with a full reboot to do it that way.  Spidey was able to reboot in the modern era, but his teen/high-school & university setting always has made that possible.   It's hard to see how Reed Richards as the "smartest man on earth" angle would play out nowadays - it would be next to impossible to explain how he wasn't even involved now, unless he was tied up with whatever SWORD is doing (and it's way too late in the game to do that for A4).   Even then, it would be impossible for the FF to be intergalactically MIA now...without having an origin story that's decades ahead of Phase 3 timeline-wise.

It would fit way better with Howard Stark's era in the MCU and the early SHIELD years for sure.  

Edited by Broncofan

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Yeah, Fantastic Four as a period piece between the two, a couple of short mini-series would probably be the best. Do it on Netflix or do it on ABC, like they did with Agent Carter would work nicely, but plan on a contained amount of series and let it roll that way. Then  maybe move it back to film.

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1 minute ago, NcFinest9erFan said:

Do you guys think A4 will start with a time jump? A few years after infinity war?

Hadn't been something I thought about, but I wouldn't be shocked. Some way Nebula and Tony are back on earth to start the movie?

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1 hour ago, Broncofan said:

You're confusing the Time Stone's ability to show him the future and what happens with different outcomes with Strange having to be actually present in that verse.   You're assuming he is actively acting all those 14 million scenarios out in each timeline in that timeline's body.  I took the CGI blurring to show him actively observing each path, but still remaining within our dimension.   That would allow him to see the Time Stone given up, and the outcome.   It's like seeing his own death in other timelines, being able to see the final outcome after his death, yet still being able to return.   

In those 14 million outcomes, Strange's analysis doesn't end with his death in each timeline - it ends with whether the Avengers defeat Thanos.    Showing them losing each time certainly would have had Strange dying before the outcome was known in a fair # of them.   The same would apply with Strange giving up the Time Stone.  The ability to observe from the outside (but not interact with) each timeline is also what likely preserves that timeline's purity (no butterfly effect, again not just for that single one, but all the others).

That still makes no sense logically. The future time lines should only be valid so as long as Strange holds the time stone. Any scenario where he gives up the stone should leave the results undeterminable. He is in a timeline where he no longer has control over the variables of time and thus his scope removed.

Continuity also proves this accurate. In Doctor Strange (the movie) the previous sorcerer(ess) supreme (Tilda Swinton) has been able to see and know the outcomes of the future, but never pass the moment of her death.

Similarly Strange should not be able to see past a) his own death and b) time after he gives up the stone. The sorceress supreme has possession of the time stone during the entirety of her view of the future. Which is why her scope of time is omniscient up until the moment of her death.

To give Strange the ability to see past both his death and his loss of the time stone, again, would present a lazy narrative that doesn’t hold to Marvels continuity nor the continuity of time manipulation in most areas of science fiction. 

How can Strange see infinite outcomes of time, when any ripples or changes Thanos makes while wielding the stone should be imperceivable because he also would have the ability to perceive (and change) all outcomes? Further said, the 1/14 million scenario to beat Thanos that Strange sees, should logically be cancelled out by Thanos also being able to see that outcome. Or does time only provide Omniscience for Strange and no one else (including a more experienced Sorceress supreme)? This logic is flawed.

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3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Further said, the 1/14 million scenario to beat Thanos that Strange sees, should logically be cancelled out by Thanos also being able to see that outcome.

Only counter to this I have is that Thanos doesn't use the time stone in this fashion. It's an active skill, not a passive "foresight" skill.

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I mean, I don’t expect superhero movies to be “realistic”, but I do expect them to hold up to the laws of their established realities. Be that consistent power levels and/or a consistent use of plot manipulating devices (such as time).

Ignoring these things doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy a movie, it just means that the story is clearly flawed and thus not as enjoyable.

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43 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

That still makes no sense logically. The future time lines should only be valid so as long as Strange holds the time stone. Any scenario where he gives up the stone should leave the results undeterminable. He is in a timeline where he no longer has control over the variables of time and thus his scope removed.

Continuity also proves this accurate. In Doctor Strange (the movie) the previous sorcerer(ess) supreme (Tilda Swinton) has been able to see and know the outcomes of the future, but never pass the moment of her death.

Similarly Strange should not be able to see past a) his own death and b) time after he gives up the stone. The sorceress supreme has possession of the time stone during the entirety of her view of the future. Which is why her scope of time is omniscient up until the moment of her death.

To give Strange the ability to see past both his death and his loss of the time stone, again, would present a lazy narrative that doesn’t hold to Marvels continuity nor the continuity of time manipulation in most areas of science fiction. 

How can Strange see infinite outcomes of time, when any ripples or changes Thanos makes while wielding the stone should be imperceivable because he also would have the ability to perceive (and change) all outcomes? Further said, the 1/14 million scenario to beat Thanos that Strange sees, should logically be cancelled out by Thanos also being able to see that outcome. Or does time only provide Omniscience for Strange and no one else (including a more experienced Sorceress supreme)? This logic is flawed.

You don’t think the Stone should allow yielders to see past their deaths & giving up the stones.  It’s never explicitly said they can’t.   I don’t see that as a problem.  There is literally no science to base this off reliably (why it’s science fiction) so it’s more important that it’s consistent and plausible.   The Sorceress not seeing past her death doesn’t mean she couldn’t.  Remember - the outcome in question is her own death or not.   She can't see past her own death.   She wouldn’t keep looking if she accepted her fate after failing to see a way out, or if she just never found any other outcome than pre-destined fate kicking in (EDIT:  did I explain that better now?  Man, timeline talk is so tiring lol).   And in doing so she doesn’t contaminate Strange’s actions either.   Or if there are no outcomes that don't end with her death.  

You don’t have to agree, that’s cool.  It’s literally an argument that can’t be proven on either side.  They are being consistent (IMO, it should go without saying lol).   You just don’t like the premise.  Which again is fine.  But it’s not like they are violating some set premise. It’s just not your premise you inferred from the Sorceress goodbye scene.  

And to be clear it’s not like my take can be argued more than yours in terms of what’s possible.   That’s actually a sign of great writing - because it can invoke spirited discussion on what-if’s.   That’s again only possible by giving enough in-film to have the viewers fill in the blanks.  

Edited by Broncofan

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Just now, diamondbull424 said:

I mean, I don’t expect superhero movies to be “realistic”, but I do expect them to hold up to the laws of their established realities.

This is 100% my expectation as well. There has to be some type of fundamental "starting" and "stopping" point that makes logic/coherent sense.

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6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

That still makes no sense logically. The future time lines should only be valid so as long as Strange holds the time stone. Any scenario where he gives up the stone should leave the results undeterminable. He is in a timeline where he no longer has control over the variables of time and thus his scope removed.

I'd actually argue against this - with the stone, he's merely watching time pass before him. He's not subject to the events in the timeline (which could be plausable if you're assuming his viewing is from the astral plane - which is a logical leap of faith) 

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1 minute ago, EliteTexan80 said:

Only counter to this I have is that Thanos doesn't use the time stone in this fashion. It's an active skill, not a passive "foresight" skill.

And I acknowledge that perhaps Thanos gets lazy and thus decides to rest on his laurels after achieving his endgame. But based off of everything we know of movie Thanos, he’s an economist and has given up much of his life to achieve this goal of his. Does he sound like the type of man who, after he is given arguably the most important of the Infinity gems without much of a struggle (and by this I mean no one has died or been tortured, even for an inexperienced warrior one would seem this feels “too easy”), he would not look to find potential loop holes that could cause him endgame harm?

Either way, we are still ignoring the limitations we saw from the previous Sorceress supreme in Doctor Strange.

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6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

And I acknowledge that perhaps Thanos gets lazy and thus decides to rest on his laurels after achieving his endgame. But based off of everything we know of movie Thanos, he’s an economist and has given up much of his life to achieve this goal of his. Does he sound like the type of man who, after he is given arguably the most important of the Infinity gems without much of a struggle (and by this I mean no one has died or been tortured, even for an inexperienced warrior one would seem this feels “too easy”), he would not look to find potential loop holes that could cause him endgame harm?

I honestly think he is - and it has less to do with his strategy, more to do with his sacrifice. For all intents and purposes, this was the most challenging thing he's ever done - both physically (he took an enhanced axe hammer to the chest) and emotionally with Gamora. 

The look on his face at the end paints a picture of someone who is content with the results of his actions, and isn't about to "check his math" so to speak.

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Either way, we are still ignoring the limitations we saw from the previous Sorceress supreme in Doctor Strange.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Strange has surpassed the Ancient One. She required power from Dormammu to exist and do what she did. Not only does Strange not need this, he was strong enough to outclass Dormammu with the same tools and spells the Ancient One had at her disposal.

Her limitations might be mere roadblocks to him.

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16 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Strange has surpassed the Ancient One. She required power from Dormammu to exist and do what she did. Not only does Strange not need this, he was strong enough to outclass Dormammu with the same tools and spells the Ancient One had at her disposal.

Her limitations might be mere roadblocks to him.

Not only was he was able to defeat Dormmammu, but he also had learned the most important lesson from the Ancient One below.   I imagine he powered up training-wise with methods that probably weren't allowed by strict rules, either.   The time he spent dying over & over in the Dark Dimension would have given him time to master powers in a much more accelerated timeframe, than in conventional time (witnessed by his ability to use the Images of Ikonn and those bands - Crimson Bands of Cytorrak...EDIT: full disclosure, I had to look those up, no idea what they were, just that they were awesome, even if Thanos countered masterfully).  

As for the reasoning - his training in the new world allowed him to think in ways that probably supplemented the mystical arts.  The old "science & arts >>> science or arts alone" argument.

Quote

Ancient One:  but as you well know, sometimes one must break the rules to serve the greater good

.

Edited by Broncofan

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25 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I'd actually argue against this - with the stone, he's merely watching time pass before him. He's not subject to the events in the timeline (which could be plausable if you're assuming his viewing is from the astral plane - which is a logical leap of faith) 

It would also explain why he's still visible in the IW timeline.   

I get the objection to the Sorceress' not seeing past her death at that specific time - but keep in mind, she wasn't looking with the objective to save the universe, she was looking for an outcome other than her own death.  In that respect, not being able to see past it, it's as simple as there being no other outcome.   Or her accepting the will of the universe as her time after so many attempts. 

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