***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[diamondbull424]

20 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I'd actually argue against this - with the stone, he's merely watching time pass before him. He's not subject to the events in the timeline (which could be plausable if you're assuming his viewing is from the astral plane - which is a logical leap of faith) 

 

22 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

You don’t think the Stone should allow yielders to see past their deaths & giving up the stones.  It’s never explicitly said they can’t.   I don’t see that as a problem.  There is literally no science to base this off reliably (why it’s science fiction) so it’s more important that it’s consistent and plausible.   The Sorceress not seeing past her death doesn’t mean she couldn’t.   She wouldn’t if she accepted her fate.  And in doing so she doesn’t contaminate Strange’s actions either.  

You don’t have to agree, that’s cool.  It’s literally an argument that can’t be proven on either side.  They are being consistent.   You just don’t like the premise.  Which again is fine.  But it’s not like they are violating some set premise.   It’s just not your premise.  And to be clear it’s not like my take can be argued more than yours in terms of what’s possible.   That’s actually a sign of great writing - because it can invoke spirited discussion on what-if’s.   That’s again only possible by giving enough in-film to have the viewers fill in the blanks.  

Let me just entertain this thought process and look at time here as purely passive and ignore the limitations of the sorceress supreme wielding time... (because of poorly written reasons.)

Just imagine the Time stone’s ability to perceive future time lines like a remote controller for a television. Your television has an unlimited number of channels for you to click on to view “time”. You are given “active oversight” of time.

Now imagine that you hand the remote controller over to someone else who equally has active oversight. He sees scenarios where he might die and actively erases those scenarios from his time line, thus actively interacting with time.

Now Doctor Strange paints the picture of time as a linear concept when used passively, where TSS (Swinton) is watching a television program. But if she turns off the program (death or loses the stone), the program can no longer be watched by her for obvious reasons. Infinity War conflicts with this viewpoint of “passive linear time” and changes it to much more of an “active oversight”, which is bad writing because any poorly written narrative can be explained by “well remember when Doctor Strange was using the time stone that one time?”

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

Let me just entertain this thought process and look at time here as purely passive and ignore the limitations of the sorceress supreme wielding time... (because of poorly written reasons.)

Just imagine the Time stone’s ability to perceive future time lines like a remote controller for a television. Your television has an unlimited number of channels for you to click on to view “time”. You are given “active oversight” of time.

Now imagine that you hand the remote controller over to someone else who equally has active oversight. He sees scenarios where he might die and actively erases those scenarios from his time line, thus actively interacting with time.

Now Doctor Strange paints the picture of time as a linear concept when used passively, where TSS (Swinton) is watching a television program. But if she turns off the program (death or loses the stone), the program can no longer be watched by her for obvious reasons. Infinity War conflicts with this viewpoint of “passive linear time” and changes it to much more of an “active oversight”, which is bad writing because any poorly written narrative can be explained by “well remember when Doctor Strange was using the time stone that one time?”

...maybe Dr. Strange has TiVo?

Just kidding. You bring up a very interesting set up here. Let me think about this.

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

Let me just entertain this thought process and look at time here as purely passive and ignore the limitations of the sorceress supreme wielding time... (because of poorly written reasons.)

Just imagine the Time stone’s ability to perceive future time lines like a remote controller for a television. Your television has an unlimited number of channels for you to click on to view “time”. You are given “active oversight” of time.

Now imagine that you hand the remote controller over to someone else who equally has active oversight. He sees scenarios where he might die and actively erases those scenarios from his time line, thus actively interacting with time.

Now Doctor Strange paints the picture of time as a linear concept when used passively, where TSS (Swinton) is watching a television program. But if she turns off the program (death or loses the stone), the program can no longer be watched by her for obvious reasons. Infinity War conflicts with this viewpoint of “passive linear time” and changes it to much more of an “active oversight”, which is bad writing because any poorly written narrative can be explained by “well remember when Doctor Strange was using the time stone that one time?”

Again, though - you are making an assumption that The Ancient One can't actually see past her death.   What she said - she couldn't see any outcome except her own death.  She wasn't looking for an outcome other than her death.  She saw none after so many attempts - because there weren't any, or after enough attempts (1 billion?  whatever # lol)....at some point, she accepted it.  Either one works.   You're using The Ancient One's statement when she had a very different and specific outcome in mind - her life/death.  Once the death occurs, there's no point to look further.   She's saying she never saw a way out of her death.  Does that make sense?   It's fun but challenging to have this kind of talk with only posts, but I'll try my best lol.

If her goal was watching for another outcome, and that had happened ("I tried to find out more, but it kept stopping after I died"), I'd see your point.  But the discussion was clearly in context of her discussing the belief her death was coming, with no other outcome.    If preventing death is the outcome, and there is no other outcome...well, you get the idea.  

Again, though, this is why I love the writing.  With time involved, though, man, it's hard to be as absolute.  I get headaches half the time trying to figure it out.  But that's also half the fun.  BTW, outstanding discussion.   Nice pickup on the Ancient One's line - I didn't have a problem with it, but I had to go back to make sure I wasn't imagining it.  I can see how you came to that conclusion - again, though, the very precise writing leaves imagination open that's plausible.   It's staggering how much attention they pay to this kind of stuff.

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Broncofan

[dtait93]

I really hope they don't use any form of time travel to bring anyone back to life. That opens a huge can of worms.

[ET80]

7 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Just imagine the Time stone’s ability to perceive future time lines like a remote controller for a television

Ok, fair and accurate, IMO.

8 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Your television has an unlimited number of channels for you to click on to view “time”. You are given “active oversight” of time.

Ok, fair still. 

8 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Now imagine that you hand the remote controller over to someone else who equally has active oversight.

"Equally" is a point of contention, IMO. 

9 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

He sees scenarios where he might die and actively erases those scenarios from his time line, thus actively interacting with time.

Did he erase those scenarios, though? Or merely followed along the path presented in said scenario?

11 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Now Doctor Strange paints the picture of time as a linear concept when used passively, where TSS (Swinton) is watching a television program. But if she turns off the program (death or loses the stone), the program can no longer be watched by her for obvious reasons. 

Honestly, this is a great exercise in "cinematic physics" if you would. I guess my stance would be that death (specifically) is the only way she'd be able to "turn off the TV". Losing the stone would be akin to losing your remote - you may desperately want to watch something other than "Green Arrow" but if the remote isn't in your hands, you really can't change the channel until find it or until "Green Arrow" is done.

[The Gnat]

Just now, dtait93 said:

I really hope they don't use any form of time travel to bring anyone back to life. That opens a huge can of worms.

I don't know that it will really be time travel. It's going to be going back in time and/or undoing what has been done using the stones on a grand scale, but not likely on a case by case basis. For example, Loki I doubt is coming back until further down the line when they decide they want Loki to come back, but that's probably the distant future as they'll let Thor face off against other villains if they do more Thor films. But Loki also didn't die in the finger snap so whomever were to bring people back would need to know that Loki died at Thanos hands to undo it. Then they'll quickly split the gems up again because of how dangerous they are.

[Broncofan]

7 minutes ago, The Gnat said:

I don't know that it will really be time travel. It's going to be going back in time and/or undoing what has been done using the stones on a grand scale, but not likely on a case by case basis. For example, Loki I doubt is coming back until further down the line when they decide they want Loki to come back, but that's probably the distant future as they'll let Thor face off against other villains if they do more Thor films. But Loki also didn't die in the finger snap so whomever were to bring people back would need to know that Loki died at Thanos hands to undo it. Then they'll quickly split the gems up again because of how dangerous they are.

In its purest form, what Thanos did with Vision was just rewind.   That would be the cleanest to do in A4 ..but also the most predictable use (along with the Soul Stone holding all the souls of those faded).   I have a funny feeling we'll see something different.   I mean, let's face it, we didn't see the big events unfold as they did for A3.   To make the assumption that they'll go the CW route in A4....

Edited May 7, 2018 by Broncofan

[Malfatron]

it would be best if they didnt undo it.

or, the universe was really split in half, with the vanishers in an alertnative universe 

 

rewinding time is super lame

[The Gnat]

Yeah, I don't know that they would rewind time. I think more that it would drop people back into the timeline. Though, I could see them going with, original Avengers sacrifice themselves, plus Rocket, to bring back the others or to make another universe where the others exist.

[diamondbull424]

8 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Again, though - you are making an assumption that The Ancient One can't actually see past her death.   What she said - she couldn't see any outcome except her own death.  She wasn't looking for an outcome other than her death.  She saw none after so many attempts - because there weren't any, or after enough attempts (1 billion?  whatever # lol)....at some point, she accepted it.  Either one works.   You're using The Ancient One's results when she had a very different and specific outcome in mind - her life/death.  Once the death occurs, no point to look further.   She's saying she never saw a way out of her death.  Does that make sense?   It's fun but challenging to have this kind of talk with only posts, but I'll try my best lol.

If her goal was watching for another outcome, and that had happened, I'd see your point.  But the discussion was clearly in context of her discussing the belief her death was coming, with no other outcome.    If preventing death is the outcome, and there is no other outcome...well, you get the idea.

 

The point that you are missing is that even beyond just her existence she could not speak on what time would bring outside of her existence.

Said another way, even if she had given into her own helplessness of death, she states that “she could not see any other outcome except her own death.” Meaning, she is stating that her scope is limited to a passive linear view and at some point that view stops. If her scope was active oversight, she would still be able to see alternative outcomes well past her own death and even INFLUENCE when she dies. See the evidence of the fact that she can’t below.

So while she can see “possibilities” with regard to Strange’s future, without actively utilizing times properties, she states “we don’t get to choose our time” which implies that without active manipulation of time (which she seems against doing), our scope is limited to “fate”. And fate is a “fixed” view of events that are beyond ones control. Meaning our scope is fixed and thus only a “passive” viewpoint. Though we can assume the time stone allows one to essentially “manipulate” this fate when used “actively”.

[dtait93]

2 minutes ago, The Gnat said:

I don't know that it will really be time travel. It's going to be going back in time and/or undoing what has been done using the stones on a grand scale, but not likely on a case by case basis. For example, Loki I doubt is coming back until further down the line when they decide they want Loki to come back, but that's probably the distant future as they'll let Thor face off against other villains if they do more Thor films. But Loki also didn't die in the finger snap so whomever were to bring people back would need to know that Loki died at Thanos hands to undo it. Then they'll quickly split the gems up again because of how dangerous they are.

Well going back in time is still time travel.

Also, Thor knows he died by Thanos' hands. He also knows Heimdall died by his hand too. Everyone also saw Vision die in Wakanda as well. If they're going to go back in time to save everyone who died post-snap why wouldn't they go back for Vision? Or Heimdall? I can see why they wouldn't for Loki, but still the question can be asked.

If they introduce time travel on a grand scale like that to start bringing people back, it's going to be very stupid because then we can ask, well why not go back in time for this character, or for this purpose, or for this, or for that? Holes will literally open up everywhere. They need to keep the time gem in small settings like the Dormmammu scene in Dr. Strange, or when Thanos rewinded 5 seconds back to get the Mind gem. Otherwise it's too powerful and has the potential to ruin everything.

Hopefully the current heroes we have left have to sacrifice themselves in some way to bring back the ones that were lost or this whole movie was for no reason with no stakes.

[diamondbull424]

17 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

I really hope they don't use any form of time travel to bring anyone back to life. That opens a huge can of worms.

It’s probably going to happen. Black Panther and Spider-Man already have planned sequels (not prequels). So they’re going to be brought back.

The best way for them to bring them back that prevents them from having to use time as a Deux Ex Machina (as we both probably hope) is for them to use the effect of the Soul stone, which we don’t fully understand. Maybe its less of a death and more of a prison plane of existence similar to the “afterlife” world in the Earthsea Cycle of books and thus one can seemingly “escape” from it. I suppose the Greek afterlife with Hades might be a more relevant example with regard to the Soul stone.

So maybe we see someone acting as almost a Harriet Tubman type figure that is guiding these prominent souls out of the stone? Or somehow the stones effects are broken entirely (which is why I mention Earthsea).

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

The point that you are missing is that even beyond just her existence she could not speak on what time would bring outside of her existence.

Said another way, even if she had given into her own helplessness of death, she states that “she could not see any other outcome except her own death.” Meaning, she is stating that her scope is limited to a passive linear view and at some point that view stops. If her scope was active oversight, she would still be able to see alternative outcomes well past her own death and even INFLUENCE when she dies. See the evidence of the fact that she can’t below.

So while she can see “possibilities” with regard to Strange’s future, without actively utilizing times properties, she states “we don’t get to choose our time” which implies that without active manipulation of time (which she seems against doing), our scope is limited to “fate”. And fate is a “fixed” view of events that are beyond ones control. Meaning our scope is fixed and thus only a “passive” viewpoint. Though we can assume the time stone allows one to essentially “manipulate” this fate when used “actively”.

We don't get to choose our time = we don't get to choose our time when we need to act.   Even if we're not ready.

FWIW, that's how I took that.  Not that it has to be active or passive time influence.   It's interesting you saw that a totally different way, I didn't.  I'll think that one over, though.   The scene in which she mentions not seeing past her own death is when she's explaining to Strange that she think she is about to die.    I don't see the context as being as wide as you are inferring.

Remember, though, that The Ancient One's a rule follower - she's willing to break the rules for the greater good, but only sometimes.  And she's consumed by guilt for her actions by Dormannu.  It's not like she will just do it over & over again.    Once she dies, it's not in her scope to look further.   And if she is to follow the rules, even if she did know - she can't tell Strange that, either.   Contamination of timeline, etc.   In that discussion about not being able to see past her own death, it was to explain that she was foreshadowing it, nothing more.   Strange's line confirms that.    

 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Broncofan

[dtait93]

5 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

It’s probably going to happen. Black Panther and Spider-Man already have planned sequels (not prequels). So they’re going to be brought back.

The best way for them to bring them back that prevents them from having to use time as a Deux Ex Machina (as we both probably hope) is for them to use the effect of the Soul stone, which we don’t fully understand. Maybe its less of a death and more of a prison plane of existence similar to the “afterlife” world in the Earthsea Cycle of books and thus one can seemingly “escape” from it. I suppose the Greek afterlife with Hades might be a more relevant example with regard to the Soul stone.

So maybe we see someone acting as almost a Harriet Tubman type figure that is guiding these prominent souls out of the stone? Or somehow the stones effects are broken entirely (which is why I mention Earthsea).

Or perhaps with Ant-Man and the Wasp coming out next month the Quantum Realm is explored a bit more and everyone fading to dust has gone sub-atomic? 

"The Quantum Realm is said by Pym to be a largely unexplored dimension, about which scientists currently know very little. Hank Pym also says the concepts of time and space become irrelevant when entering the realm, and whoever tries to explore it may become trapped 'for eternity'. Scott Lang's incursion into the Quantum Realm began on a microscopic level, then entered atomic size, later dissolving into pure energy and waves, then in a fractal-like reality where the shrinking person meets an infinite number of mirror images of themselves (a possible indication of the "soul" concept), and ending in a weightless dark void with pockets of dim light." http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_Realm

Hopefully it's something to do with that or what you're describing with the Soul Gem and their souls are trapped. No time travel or alternate universes please.

[Broncofan]

8 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

It’s probably going to happen. Black Panther and Spider-Man already have planned sequels (not prequels). So they’re going to be brought back.

The best way for them to bring them back that prevents them from having to use time as a Deux Ex Machina (as we both probably hope) is for them to use the effect of the Soul stone, which we don’t fully understand. Maybe its less of a death and more of a prison plane of existence similar to the “afterlife” world in the Earthsea Cycle of books and thus one can seemingly “escape” from it. I suppose the Greek afterlife with Hades might be a more relevant example with regard to the Soul stone.

So maybe we see someone acting as almost a Harriet Tubman type figure that is guiding these prominent souls out of the stone? Or somehow the stones effects are broken entirely (which is why I mention Earthsea).

The Soul Stone is definitely the cleanest way to bring the faded Avengers (& universe) back.  The problem is that both the Time Stone rewind and the Soul Stone are readily obvious solutions.    That makes it less appealing.  The Russo Bros. probably have played the death angle that shocked us now - we know that BP, Spidey & GOTG are all coming back.   That's already predictable.   Russos & co. will likely look to at least offer a big twist off the CW to keep A4 viewers guessing.