***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[Broncofan]

2 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Or perhaps with Ant-Man and the Wasp coming out next month the Quantum Realm is explored a bit more and everyone fading to dust has gone sub-atomic? 

"The Quantum Realm is said by Pym to be a largely unexplored dimension, about which scientists currently know very little. Hank Pym also says the concepts of time and space become irrelevant when entering the realm, and whoever tries to explore it may become trapped 'for eternity'. Scott Lang's incursion into the Quantum Realm began on a microscopic level, then entered atomic size, later dissolving into pure energy and waves, then in a fractal-like reality where the shrinking person meets an infinite number of mirror images of themselves (a possible indication of the "soul" concept), and ending in a weightless dark void with pockets of dim light." http://marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Quantum_Realm

Hopefully it's something to do with that or what you're describing with the Soul Gem and their souls are trapped. No time travel or alternate universes please.

It was all a dream by Tony Stark in the shower?

(I'm dating myself for those of you who don't get the reference)

Edited May 7, 2018 by Broncofan

[MWil23]

This isn't a  nice existential point to bring up, but more or less just a general feeling that I feel that I have representing the "majority of casual fans", so I'll just save it:

Time travel to fix something that went wrong is a cheap, cop out, antiquated story-line superpower that is a form of cheating. That's why so many people are irritated by the Flash, why Superman doesn't use it all that often (because he's already almost completely supernatural/indestructible), and why so many people get upset when plots go awry. It often means lazy writing, cop outs, and comes across as "selling out" because there is no finality to anyone's death/fate, which results in people losing interest and walking away.

Just my own personal thoughts that I feel are relatively represented by your casual fan.

[diamondbull424]

20 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

Ok, fair and accurate, IMO.

Ok, fair still. 

"Equally" is a point of contention, IMO. 

Did he erase those scenarios, though? Or merely followed along the path presented in said scenario?

Honestly, this is a great exercise in "cinematic physics" if you would. I guess my stance would be that death (specifically) is the only way she'd be able to "turn off the TV". Losing the stone would be akin to losing your remote - you may desperately want to watch something other than "Green Arrow" but if the remote isn't in your hands, you really can't change the channel until find it or until "Green Arrow" is done.

1. Agree completely, very thought provoking.

2. I agree again. But Strange gives up the time stone with an assumed omniscience of events. If we assume that death is the end of our “sight” of time, Strange’s statement of “we are in the endgame now” right as he evaporates isn’t a statement of omniscience as he should no longer be able to view what happens after his death.

Or if he handed it over because of a future he saw, that would prove he was still alive in THAT timeline where he sees Toni stop Thanos.

Yet the fact that he is evaporates in our movie timeline means that it’s not the same timeline that he oversaw Toni stopping Thanos therein. So his omniscience as he dies should make no sense.

And if it isn’t omniscience that he hands over the stone for, then as opposed to a narrative flaw (with regards to rules) this introduces a character flaw. Why would Strange sacrifice the universe for one man without being sure of the outcome? Would make no sense.

[Malfatron]

32 minutes ago, The Gnat said:

Yeah, I don't know that they would rewind time. I think more that it would drop people back into the timeline. Though, I could see them going with, original Avengers sacrifice themselves, plus Rocket, to bring back the others or to make another universe where the others exist.

agreed because it seems like the people who disappeared shouldnt have. and the people who didnt should have.

maybe the disapeared folks were the ones who were saved after all

[diamondbull424]

9 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

This isn't a  nice existential point to bring up, but more or less just a general feeling that I feel that I have representing the "majority of casual fans", so I'll just save it:

Time travel to fix something that went wrong is a cheap, cop out, antiquated story-line superpower that is a form of cheating. That's why so many people are irritated by the Flash, why Superman doesn't use it all that often (because he's already almost completely supernatural/indestructible), and why so many people get upset when plots go awry. It often means lazy writing, cop outs, and comes across as "selling out" because there is no finality to anyone's death/fate, which results in people losing interest and walking away.

Just my own personal thoughts that I feel are relatively represented by your casual fan.

I agree completely. In any strong literary or science fiction venture that utilizes time as a plot device, time enhances the story by forcing real consequences. You rewind time and you no longer effect YOUR timeline but another. You collapse universes with too much change. You go into the future and can never travel back into the past. You can only change time once every x amount of years. Time is something you can see but not change. Time causes some lord of time to enforce a punishment onto those that use it.

Time travel having rules is the only way to keep the material from getting stale. It’s why DBZ is a great show for a kid and teenager (and for pure entertainment), but once you mature and you see all deaths can be erased by magical wish granting devices you understand that the material loses much weight and it becomes a cheap and lazy storytelling device that usually forces no consequences (but even DBZ has enough rules to keep it interesting.)

[Broncofan]

14 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

This isn't a  nice existential point to bring up, but more or less just a general feeling that I feel that I have representing the "majority of casual fans", so I'll just save it:

Time travel to fix something that went wrong is a cheap, cop out, antiquated story-line superpower that is a form of cheating. That's why so many people are irritated by the Flash, why Superman doesn't use it all that often (because he's already almost completely supernatural/indestructible), and why so many people get upset when plots go awry. It often means lazy writing, cop outs, and comes across as "selling out" because there is no finality to anyone's death/fate, which results in people losing interest and walking away.

Just my own personal thoughts that I feel are relatively represented by your casual fan.

Yeah it’s a useful way if you want to hit the reset button completely.  Like JJ Abrams did with Star Trek.   But as a pure storytelling device it’s a bail out.   I’m hoping for something more.  I think we all are. 

[MWil23]

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

I agree completely. In any strong literary or science fiction venture that utilizes time as a plot device, time enhances the story by forcing real consequences. You rewind time and you no longer effect YOUR timeline but another. You collapse universes with too much change. You go into the future and can never travel back into the past. You can only change time once every x amount of years. Time is something you can see but not change. Time causes some lord of time to enforce a punishment onto those that use it.

Exactly! Comedy or not, Back to the Future (the whole trilogy) did a great job of this.

 

[ET80]

14 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

2. I agree again. But Strange gives up the time stone with an assumed omniscience of events. If we assume that death is the end of our “sight” of time, Strange’s statement of “we are in the endgame now” right as he evaporates isn’t a statement of omniscience as he should no longer be able to view what happens after his death.

If you think about it from this specific perspective, then it really lends itself to the theory that everyone who evaporated isn't dead, but trapped in the stone... Strange would still be able to see the events unfold from inside the stone, right? Moreso specifically, he'd know who would be the one to break him out of said stone, right?

Pure speculation on my part, but we might get one part of IW2 as events outside the stone (OG Avengers, Rocket, Okoye, Nebula, Captain Marvel) and another half as events INSIDE the stone (Spiderman, BP, Strange, SW, Drax, Groot, Bucky - all planning their own escape, while rescuing half of life, while fighting off the unsavory lives that also might be in there). 

I'd watch that.

[Broncofan]

7 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

If you think about it from this specific perspective, then it really lends itself to the theory that everyone who evaporated isn't dead, but trapped in the stone... Strange would still be able to see the events unfold from inside the stone, right? Moreso specifically, he'd know who would be the one to break him out of said stone, right?

Pure speculation on my part, but we might get one part of IW2 as events outside the stone (OG Avengers, Rocket, Okoye, Nebula, Captain Marvel) and another half as events INSIDE the stone (Spiderman, BP, Strange, SW, Drax, Groot, Bucky - all planning their own escape, while rescuing half of life, while fighting off the unsavory lives that also might be in there). 

I'd watch that.

OK mind blown.  Hadn’t even thought of that.   The scene with Thanos & young Gamora leaves open that in-stone possibility for A4 story-wise.   I’d just considered this was going to be the Original Avengers swan song screen-time wise.  

Great that’s another hour of lost work time coming up.  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Broncofan

[ET80]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

OK mind blown.  Hadn’t even thought of that.   The scene with Thanos & young Gamora leaves open that in-stone possibility for A4 story-wise.   I’d just considered this was going to be the Original Avengers swan song screen-time wise.  

Great that’s another hour of lost work time coming up.  

I call this the "Star Lord" theory: I'm of the thought that there is no way they let one of their biggest stars go down without a redemption arc of some sort. Everyone was going to lay blame at Quill for foiling the plan, so he needs to redeem himself, or that character is going to lose every bit of momentum he gained in the GotG series.

[D82]

33 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I call this the "Star Lord" theory: I'm of the thought that there is no way they let one of their biggest stars go down without a redemption arc of some sort. Everyone was going to lay blame at Quill for foiling the plan, so he needs to redeem himself, or that character is going to lose every bit of momentum he gained in the GotG series.

Now that would be an awesome story-line.

Maybe the Quantum Realm is somehow involved as well? Thought I saw somewhere that Janet would be coming back...so maybe her being released from the Soul Stone along with the others would be the way in which this happens?

[Broncofan]

57 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I call this the "Star Lord" theory: I'm of the thought that there is no way they let one of their biggest stars go down without a redemption arc of some sort. Everyone was going to lay blame at Quill for foiling the plan, so he needs to redeem himself, or that character is going to lose every bit of momentum he gained in the GotG series.

I suspected the “It was the only way” angle would get expanded upon and A4 would subsequently redeem Quill at some point.   A more proactive redemption would be awesome.   He had to play the foil to Thor’s comedic scenes with the GOTG I get that.   Redemption for losing his cool while the others were temporarily holding Thanos off would take away the one valid criticism with him.  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Broncofan

[The Gnat]

1 hour ago, EliteTexan80 said:

I call this the "Star Lord" theory: I'm of the thought that there is no way they let one of their biggest stars go down without a redemption arc of some sort. Everyone was going to lay blame at Quill for foiling the plan, so he needs to redeem himself, or that character is going to lose every bit of momentum he gained in the GotG series.

That's interesting as an option. I hadn't thought of multiple beings being trapped in the soul stone. That would be an interesting way to potentially introduce Adam Warlock as well, have him be in the soul stone. That would be a solid nod to the comics without going too deeply into the Infinity War storyline from the comics.

[NcFinest9erFan]

3 hours ago, The Gnat said:

Hadn't been something I thought about, but I wouldn't be shocked. Some way Nebula and Tony are back on earth to start the movie?

Probably..I was thinking if they want these "deaths" to have an effect on the characters then the story must proceed on? 

[theJ]

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Similarly Strange should not be able to see past a) his own death and b) time after he gives up the stone. The sorceress supreme has possession of the time stone during the entirety of her view of the future. Which is why her scope of time is omniscient up until the moment of her death.

 

Did she use the stone to see those futures?  I thought the stone was mostly sitting in the Sanctum. 

You're probably right, she likely does.  And yes, there are some continuity issues with how that is presented.  But the solution here is Dues Ex Machina.  Strange uses a different spell or whatever you call those that the Ancient One wasn't familiar with.  They demonstrated in his origin movie that he was a quick study.  He likely knows every conceivable spell at this point, and has most of them mastered.

Also, i think that's the same reasoning you can use for why Thanos doesn't see these possibilities.  He doesn't know how to use the stone like that. (btw, as i was watching the movie, i thought it was strange that he knew how to use the time stone at all.  that seemed like advanced stuff, but maybe he only researched the basics prior to obtaining the stones)