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***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

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39 minutes ago, theJ said:

Did she use the stone to see those futures?  I thought the stone was mostly sitting in the Sanctum. 

You're probably right, she likely does.  And yes, there are some continuity issues with how that is presented.  But the solution here is Dues Ex Machina.  Strange uses a different spell or whatever you call those that the Ancient One wasn't familiar with.  They demonstrated in his origin movie that he was a quick study.  He likely knows every conceivable spell at this point, and has most of them mastered.

Also, i think that's the same reasoning you can use for why Thanos doesn't see these possibilities.  He doesn't know how to use the stone like that. (btw, as i was watching the movie, i thought it was strange that he knew how to use the time stone at all.  that seemed like advanced stuff, but maybe he only researched the basics prior to obtaining the stones)

To be fair, you'd think rewinding the clock for a few mins would probably be one of the easiest things on the skills list to learn.    It might have devastating consequences across the universe, but to Thanos, he clearly doesn't worry about that, if it's a means to achieving his ultimate goal.

Edited by Broncofan

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5 hours ago, EliteTexan80 said:

If you think about it from this specific perspective, then it really lends itself to the theory that everyone who evaporated isn't dead, but trapped in the stone... Strange would still be able to see the events unfold from inside the stone, right? Moreso specifically, he'd know who would be the one to break him out of said stone, right?

Pure speculation on my part, but we might get one part of IW2 as events outside the stone (OG Avengers, Rocket, Okoye, Nebula, Captain Marvel) and another half as events INSIDE the stone (Spiderman, BP, Strange, SW, Drax, Groot, Bucky - all planning their own escape, while rescuing half of life, while fighting off the unsavory lives that also might be in there). 

I'd watch that.

Sorry, work kept me from getting back to this earlier.

But yeah, this is one of the scenarios that I was hoping for. An ethereal plane battle vs a real life battle. I was kind of alluding to something like this when I mentioned Earthsea.

That said, two things with this theory:

1. It still doesn’t explain the inconsistency with the passive linear time structure established in Doctor Strange. (that can only be unexplained with “well after 500 years and defending earth successfully from multiple threats over that time, Doctor Strange was able to surpass her in only a year’s time because of magic that she also had access to”.) 

Which either way is poor writing. Fate is clearly mentioned and fate creates a passive relationship with cause and effect in relationship to time.

2. If we go back to our tv/remote analogy, the ethereal plane for the Soul stone  should exist separate of time’s constructs because it is a separate dimension that governs its own rules.

Think of it this way. The time gem effects Dormamu’s dimension (that exists beyond time) because time exerts an extra (time) dimension on it when it actively interacts with it (goes to Dormamu’s realm). It does it similar to how it effects our “reality” (reality gem) of 3-dimensions. Time adds the 4th dimension as the time gem exists within our reality.

 Time (the gem) should not exist within the Soul stone because it houses its own dimensions and rules separate of reality.

So even if Strange is captured within the Soul stone, he should be like a man in front of a tv that is blindfolded and his ears are covered. He should have no way to perceive what is happening within this extra dimension.

===========

The only logical explanation that I feel would allow Strange future sight even within the Soul stone, is the guantlet mixing time into the properties of the Soul dimension (similar to how it does this with the dark dimension when it comes into direct contact). This being said though, this would also mean that the Soul plane would mix with reality as well (or vice versa) and one would exist within the other. Making the Soul realm a physical realm and reality a “spiritual/Soul” realm.

Edited by diamondbull424

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3 hours ago, theJ said:

Did she use the stone to see those futures?  I thought the stone was mostly sitting in the Sanctum. 

You're probably right, she likely does.  And yes, there are some continuity issues with how that is presented.  But the solution here is Dues Ex Machina.  Strange uses a different spell or whatever you call those that the Ancient One wasn't familiar with.  They demonstrated in his origin movie that he was a quick study.  He likely knows every conceivable spell at this point, and has most of them mastered.

Also, i think that's the same reasoning you can use for why Thanos doesn't see these possibilities.  He doesn't know how to use the stone like that. (btw, as i was watching the movie, i thought it was strange that he knew how to use the time stone at all.  that seemed like advanced stuff, but maybe he only researched the basics prior to obtaining the stones)

It’s been awhile since I’ve seen it, but I don’t remember her using the stone either. Yet her knowing time without the stones would be an impressive feat that would truly put her on another level of ability.

More likely, she likely uses the time gem to read his future and then uses magic to show him infinite possibilities that could be, but are simply recreations of what she saw with the eye.

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1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. It still doesn’t explain the inconsistency with the passive linear time structure established in Doctor Strange. (that can only be unexplained with “well after 500 years and defending earth successfully from multiple threats over that time, Doctor Strange was able to surpass her in only a year’s time because of magic that she also had access to”.) 

If you think about it - this was more or less explained in Doctor Strange:

Stephen Strange: They really should put the warnings before the spell.


Wong: Your curiosity could have gotten you killed. You weren’t manipulating the space-time continuum, you were breaking it. We do not tamper with natural law, we defend it.

Mordo: How did you even do that?

Stephen Strange: Hm?

Mordo: Where did you learn the litany of spells required to even understand it?

Dr. Stephen Strange: I’ve got a photographic memory, that’s how I got my M.D. and Ph.D. at the same time.


Mordo: What you just did takes more than a good memory. You were born for the mystic arts.

Early on, we were told that Strange wasn't a normal student of the mystic arts. He was a very unique talent - was able to surpass Wong, Baron Mordo and Kaicellius in a matter of weeks. And - if you pay attention to The Winter Soldier - you'll see he's had his powers for a very long time (he's mentioned as someone Hydra has been tracking for death with the Helicarriers). 

So, it's not just a year - he's probably been doing this for a while, and he learns at an exponential rate vs an above average to great student such as Mordo or Kaicellius. 

Still reading over the rest of your post, should be able to respond sometime today. I'm enjoying this. 

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One addendum to my previous post, figure it too late to edit and add it in.

If we assume that reality and soul planes both mix, then by snapping his finger, Thanos isn’t actually wiping out half the universe but simply repositioning half the universe into another part of the universe that was just added. And thus as these populations grow, there would be no legitimate way for him to “cure” over-population because “spirit reality” which is a 5 dimensional space, would offer no potential solace.

So if the guantlet mixes the effects of each, Thanos can’t achieve his aims.

Either that or time and soul dimensions can’t mix unless Thanos closes his first and wills them to, which would make Doctor Strange’s perception in the futuresight look like one of those blurry channels on a tube tv that would catch a signal every once in awhile. (while you try and adjust the rabbit ears... good ole days??‍♀️)

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21 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

One addendum to my previous post, figure it too late to edit and add it in.

If we assume that reality and soul planes both mix, then by snapping his finger, Thanos isn’t actually wiping out half the universe but simply repositioning half the universe into another part of the universe that was just added. And thus as these populations grow, there would be no legitimate way for him to “cure” over-population because “spirit reality” which is a 5 dimensional space, would offer no potential solace.

So if the guantlet mixes the effects of each, Thanos can’t achieve his aims.

Either that or time and soul dimensions can’t mix unless Thanos closes his first and wills them to, which would make Doctor Strange’s perception in the futuresight look like one of those blurry channels on a tube tv that would catch a signal every once in awhile. (while you try and adjust the rabbit ears... good ole days??‍♀️)

If the soul stone holds its own dimension, it may remove their need for physical resources in this universe.   FWIW, for now all we know is that the soul stone has Gamora's soul.  That is the path to her resurrection.  We have no idea if half the universe is there with her, but keep in mind they may not be trapped physically.  But the lifeforce may still be contained.   Remember that we saw young Gamora, so it's not like they're holding physical beings in there.   We're now jumping from time mechanics to life-force/chi/energy discussion, so I'll leave it at that, as my head hurts already at the time scenarios in play lol.

TBH, I don't think the Soul Stone will be the only path to the entire half-universe's resurrection, but it's going to play a role.   I think it would be the most predictable route (along with time stone reversal, but that's not just obvious, it's also cheap, as all agree - don't see that as a viable option for A4).  That's why I think we'll see something quite different.

Edited by Broncofan

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4 hours ago, Broncofan said:

To be fair, you'd think rewinding the clock for a few mins would probably be one of the easiest things on the skills list to learn.    It might have devastating consequences across the universe, but to Thanos, he clearly doesn't worry about that, if it's a means to achieving his ultimate goal.

See @EliteTexan80 post above this one.  The seemingly minor manipulation of time of a few seconds was supposedly a really difficult thing to do.  Strange makes it looks easy, but supposedly it's really hard.  Or at least, that's how it's made out to be.

Or maybe it's only hard for humans.  :D

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3 minutes ago, theJ said:

See @EliteTexan80 post above this one.  The seemingly minor manipulation of time of a few seconds was supposedly a really difficult thing to do.  Strange makes it looks easy, but supposedly it's really hard.  Or at least, that's how it's made out to be.

Or maybe it's only hard for humans.  :D

I'm guessing by the time Thanos acquires the 4th stone, he's probably got some of the basics of stone operation down.   Plus, the whole Titan > human thing you referred to.

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8 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

It’s probably going to happen. Black Panther and Spider-Man already have planned sequels (not prequels). So they’re going to be brought back.

The best way for them to bring them back that prevents them from having to use time as a Deux Ex Machina (as we both probably hope) is for them to use the effect of the Soul stone, which we don’t fully understand. Maybe its less of a death and more of a prison plane of existence similar to the “afterlife” world in the Earthsea Cycle of books and thus one can seemingly “escape” from it. I suppose the Greek afterlife with Hades might be a more relevant example with regard to the Soul stone.

So maybe we see someone acting as almost a Harriet Tubman type figure that is guiding these prominent souls out of the stone? Or somehow the stones effects are broken entirely (which is why I mention Earthsea).

Just because they are sequels doesn’t mean they have to have those actors. Miles morales could take over and MBaku could run Wakanda, I’m not saying it will happen, but it certainly isn’t impossible. GotG 3 could be the guardians with Adam Warlock looking for Quill. 

The contracts the actors signed probably rebutes this though.

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10 minutes ago, theJ said:

See @EliteTexan80 post above this one.  The seemingly minor manipulation of time of a few seconds was supposedly a really difficult thing to do.  Strange makes it looks easy, but supposedly it's really hard.  Or at least, that's how it's made out to be.

Or maybe it's only hard for humans.  :D

As you can tell, I can judge these narratives quite deeply, but I just kind of wrote this part off to either:

a) the guantlet being specifically engineered by the dwarves to not only contain the power, but also to simplify the manipulation of the stones.

b) The Power rangers effect where you don’t need to learn these things, you just magically understand and become adept when you have “the power”. I’m half joking and half being truthful. But the power stone could potentially explain his ability to “understand” the power of things, including the other stones. This requires some suspension of disbelief, but I’m okay with this because it’s a common action movie trope, thus it fits the rules of its specific genre.

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17 minutes ago, Manny/Patrick said:

Just because they are sequels doesn’t mean they have to have those actors. Miles morales could take over and MBaku could run Wakanda, I’m not saying it will happen, but it certainly isn’t impossible. GotG 3 could be the guardians with Adam Warlock looking for Quill. 

The contracts the actors signed probably rebutes this though.

This is HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely for two reasons:

1. Chadwick Boseman is a fan favorite. The black community would LITERALLY riot if he were replaced without good reason (I know I would).

2. Money/contract- The standard Marvel contract for an Avenger member (per Ruffalo) is 6 movies (unless they sign a contract extension). So Marvel has already paid Boseman money with the expectation of his availability. So he has another 3 movies left on his deal. Thus for them to kill him off would be akin to the Houston Texans cutting JJ Watt halfway through their rookie contract because they wanted to give opposing offenses a different look.???

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6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

This is HIGHLY HIGHLY unlikely for two reasons:

1. Chadwick Boseman is a fan favorite. The black community would LITERALLY riot if he were replaced without good reason (I know I would).

2. Money/contract- The standard Marvel contract for an Avenger member (per Ruffalo) is 6 movies (unless they sign a contract extension). So Marvel has already paid Boseman money with the expectation of his availability. So he has another 3 movies left on his deal. Thus for them to kill him off would be akin to the Houston Texans cutting JJ Watt halfway through their rookie contract because they wanted to give opposing offenses a different look.???

FWIW, Holland is confirmed to have multiple movies left, and Boseman's been reported to have 5-6 movies.  Replacing them is not happening.  

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/marvel/249346/marvel-studios-when-actors-contract-expire

Edited by Broncofan

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4 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

FWIW, Holland is confirmed to have multiple movies left, and Boseman's been reported to have 5-6 movies.  Replacing them is not happening.  

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/marvel/249346/marvel-studios-when-actors-contract-expire

Who’s to say they can’t be cameos. Cmon guys I want to have these crazy theories too.

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6 minutes ago, Manny/Patrick said:

Who’s to say they can’t be cameos. Cmon guys I want to have these crazy theories too.

Well why didn’t you just say so before... we’ll include you as an honorary member!

Granted, just so you know, we may have to kill you off early and replace you posthumously. Don’t worry though, we’ll give you a CGI cameo to make up for your troubles!??

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11 minutes ago, Manny/Patrick said:

Who’s to say they can’t be cameos. Cmon guys I want to have these crazy theories too.

The other theories generate pages of heated discussion.   Your theory would create riots in the streets.  Anarchy.  Little kids orphaned too soon.  Do you really want that on your conscience?  Do you?

image.jpg?w=500&c=1

 

Edited by Broncofan

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