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***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

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9 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

If we assume that death is the end of our “sight” of time, Strange’s statement of “we are in the endgame now” right as he evaporates isn’t a statement of omniscience as he should no longer be able to view what happens after his death.

Or if he handed it over because of a future he saw, that would prove he was still alive in THAT timeline where he sees Toni stop Thanos.

Why are we assuming this? This holds weight of we assume this. Your passive/active analysis hasn’t been demonstrated, just postulated. There is no reason to think that the Time Stone’s power is limited to the lifespan of the possessor. I get your reference to TSS but as has been stated, there is no indication that she was incapable of seeing anything beyond her death. She simply stated that all roads lead there. There’s a difference between “I cannot see beyond this point” and “I have no future beyond this point”.

Her statement that she can’t see beyond the moment of her death are I think intentionally vague  can she not see anything or can she not see a way around it? So you can assume the likitation that you do, but it is no more supported in the MCU than the other.

I understood the Time Stone’s power to give the possessor the ability to set themselves as an observer outside the timeline. It gives them the ability to see possibilities, extending to them the apparent ability to influence the future course of events, but in a particularly limited fashion. Regardless, if all possibilities lead to one outcome, such as TSS’s death, there is nothing to influence.

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33 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

The other theories generate pages of heated discussion.   Your theory would create riots in the streets.  Anarchy.  Little kids orphaned too soon.  Do you really want that on your conscience?  Do you?

image.jpg?w=500&c=1

 

Fun isn’t something one considers when balancing the universe. But this...... does bring a smile to my face.

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Not sure why people are saying Thanos isn’t evil just because he is convinced that his path is the only way to the universe’s salvation. Just because he’s dedicated doesn’t mean it isn’t morally reprehensible or malevolent. He is both (profoundly immoral and malevolent), which just so happens to be the definition of evil.

He’s pretty much the epitome of a tyrant, which just so happens to be the go-to reference for Lawful Evil.

That, of course, is utterly irrelevant to whether his character is compelling; it very much is. Killmonger was the same way. Both were exceedingly compelling villains precisely because, though fitting the definition of evil, they weren’t evil for the sake of being evil. They both had a motivation that is relatable and, at least to some degree, logical. With both of them you think, “Ok, they’re not entirely wrong, but ...”. Even still, both evil.

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Agree, Thanos is clearly Lawful-Evil, I'd even go as to argue that Thanos knows he's Lawful-Evil, however, he's so focused on his solution that he sees it as the only option and is willing to be evil for the "greater good".

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I always assumed the Ancient One didn't use the time stone.  Considering she wasn't willing to use it in life or death situations against Kaicilius who was actively trying to destroy the sanctums and open the Earth to the dark dimension and Dormamu, it came off to me that she regarded it as too dangerous to use (as expressed by Mordo's explanation, Mordo being taught by the Ancient One).

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14 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

2. If we go back to our tv/remote analogy, the ethereal plane for the Soul stone  should exist separate of time’s constructs because it is a separate dimension that governs its own rules.

Think of it this way. The time gem effects Dormamu’s dimension (that exists beyond time) because time exerts an extra (time) dimension on it when it actively interacts with it (goes to Dormamu’s realm). It does it similar to how it effects our “reality” (reality gem) of 3-dimensions. Time adds the 4th dimension as the time gem exists within our reality.

 Time (the gem) should not exist within the Soul stone because it houses its own dimensions and rules separate of reality.

So even if Strange is captured within the Soul stone, he should be like a man in front of a tv that is blindfolded and his ears are covered. He should have no way to perceive what is happening within this extra dimension.

===========

The only logical explanation that I feel would allow Strange future sight even within the Soul stone, is the guantlet mixing time into the properties of the Soul dimension (similar to how it does this with the dark dimension when it comes into direct contact). This being said though, this would also mean that the Soul plane would mix with reality as well (or vice versa) and one would exist within the other. Making the Soul realm a physical realm and reality a “spiritual/Soul” realm

So, I did something in preparation for this response - I actually watched Doctor Strange again last night (part because my son loves the movie, part because it's a great movie, part because this conversation).

I think the crux of this argument comes down to Strange and his ability to reside in the Astral space. 

As we saw in the movie, Strange is flung there unknowingly by The Ancient One, but eventually develops the ability to go there at will - we see him project himself into the realm while he's sleeping to read more books and (most importantly to this discussion) we see him there after he takes a dark dimension knife to the chest. In the "real" world, Strange is near death - he tells Dr. Christine Palmer the extent of his injury prior to passing out. Meanwhile, his astral form is pretty much intact - he even advises Palmer in her efforts to keep him going. During surgery, he had to fight against disciples of Dormammu/Kacillius, and during that fight, his body flat out dies - Palmer had to hit him with the crash cart to get a heartbeat going.

This demonstrates a different paradigm to our TV analogy - in the astral form, he's not the guy with the remote, he's a completely different entity sitting across the room, not only able to watch the TV, but can watch the room and anything in it (bag of chips on the couch, drink on a coaster on the coffee table, fridge in the kitchen).

So, pairing that ability to witness surroundings in a separate plane of existence with the time stone's ability to traverse through various timeline of events allow him to witness the 14,000,605 possibilities from a position to where he's not impacted by decisions made inside or outside of the possibilities.

Now - key thing here is that through the events of Doctor Strange, he's repeatedly warned to NOT do this. At that moment, he was doing exactly what Wong told him not to do - which was mess with the natural order. But, this is expected from Strange - he's not a stranger (no pun intended) to breaking a few rules for the greater good, which is what ultimately drives the wedge between him and Baron Mordo.

Ultimately, he took multiple natural orders, collated the data from worst possible outcome to best possible outcome, and found the one that yielded the best results. He couldn't come out and say "OK, here's the game plan" because that in itself would alter the actions of Stark, Parker, Quill etc. He had to let their actions stay the course.

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4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

@EliteTexan80 just won the thread. Congrats sir.

To be fair - the last prediction I had for the MCU (the Soul Stone was buried deep within the Vibranium asteroid that landed in Wakanda) was horribly off. 

So, there's that. Take my views with a grain of salt. :D

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12 hours ago, fretgod99 said:

Not sure why people are saying Thanos isn’t evil just because he is convinced that his path is the only way to the universe’s salvation. Just because he’s dedicated doesn’t mean it isn’t morally reprehensible or malevolent. He is both (profoundly immoral and malevolent), which just so happens to be the definition of evil.

He’s pretty much the epitome of a tyrant, which just so happens to be the go-to reference for Lawful Evil.

That, of course, is utterly irrelevant to whether his character is compelling; it very much is. Killmonger was the same way. Both were exceedingly compelling villains precisely because, though fitting the definition of evil, they weren’t evil for the sake of being evil. They both had a motivation that is relatable and, at least to some degree, logical. With both of them you think, “Ok, they’re not entirely wrong, but ...”. Even still, both evil.

You have to have joy in the suffering of those around you. He does not. He see's the end as joyful because he views it as salvation. Just because someone who is willing to die for their beliefs because they believe eternal paradise will be their reward, you wouldn't consider them suicidal would you? No they may very much enjoy life and their loved ones, but martyrdom is a calling to those put on that position to have to choose. It's a different view point and like I said Thanos is more of a zealot then anything.

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3 hours ago, The Gnat said:

Agree, Thanos is clearly Lawful-Evil, I'd even go as to argue that Thanos knows he's Lawful-Evil, however, he's so focused on his solution that he sees it as the only option and is willing to be evil for the "greater good".

This I don't get.

People who commit evil acts must have a evil motive or be evil themselves.

If you are given the ultimatium between two loved ones, and you have to kill one or lose both does it make you evil to choose? Like a mother having complications while going into labor. Or someone putting a gun to your head and making you to choose between two people. I mean Thanos explained this pretty clearly in the movie that if life is left unchecked it will lead to many extinctions of different races just as it did to his own. Except for Thanos this is not just a theory. This actually happened to him. He watched his entire world die. Everyone he knew, everyone he cared for. He is the last of his race or so it is implied.

He is bringing salvation to the universe in his own eyes. And in his conversation with Gammora near his throne he speaks about it with a hint of disdain and disgust when talking about only he has the will and conviction to do what is necessary.

I mean really think about that for a second. People lose loved ones everyday. Some to cancer some to guns, etc. And they make it their life's mission to fight against those things. Sometimes in an extreme way. He lost his entire race due to negligence and extreme over population. If he they had put his plan into action they would have been saved. And he uses this justification to Gammora when talking about her home planet. He saved it. Everyone there is happy now. Thanos is both crazy, but also has a method to his madness because his theory works. Does it make him right for him alone to make that decision? No, but he views himself as the only sane one around.

And it's not like he has a biased about it. The only exception to this rule was the dwarves who he viewed as an extreme threat to his plan to "save" the universe. All the Avengers fought him all of them lost, Tony Stark actually hurt him. They all caused him massive problems. They were alive at the end. The original team, Tchalla, Parker, everyone else dead. He was true to his word about eliminating half the population by random selection. He didn't go after Thor because he nearly killed him. He let him live.

You cannot argue that he is evil. Evil would not have tolerated that.

Edited by Calvert28

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If we do see people being brought back I want to see Thanos children brought back just to see Maw kick names and take *****

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3 minutes ago, Manny/Patrick said:

If we do see people being brought back I want to see Thanos children brought back just to see Maw kick names and take *****

Oh they will be i expect. Although for how long is debatable.

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9 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

If you are given the ultimatium between two loved ones, and you have to kill one or lose both does it make you evil to choose? Like a mother having complications while going into labor.

Yes because in both scenarios you still are making the conscious decision to murder someone for the sake of the other. Murder is murder and is evil no matter which way you slice it.

30 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Does it make him right for him alone to make that decision? No, but he views himself as the only sane one around.

What if the majority decides they agree with him that it's the right thing to do to wipe out half of their race? Would it make it right?

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1 minute ago, dtait93 said:

Yes because in both scenarios you still are making the conscious decision to murder someone for the sake of the other. Murder is murder and is evil no matter which way you slice it.

 

Lol i dont know how you can actually think like this. A doctor tells you that the mother of your child is about to die as is the child and you have to choose to get rid of one to save the other or they both die and you consider it evil to make that choice? Maybe both should die?

 

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