***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[Malfatron]

4 hours ago, THE DUKE said:

That's coming in Avengers 4

who is this again?

[ET80]

11 minutes ago, MathMan said:

who is this again?

Carol Danvers, AKA Captain Marvel:

[Broncofan]

46 minutes ago, theJ said:

8 damn it, and i love those movies.  So back off.

Do you really count Tokyo Drift as a movie?  I know, I know, Han died there.   It seemed more like "hey we need time to get the regular cast back, here's our fill-in".  

Not that FF is Masterpiece Theatre, lol.  It's a guilty pleasure.   Like enjoying WWE like we did as kids and in school.

I will give them credit, they handled the death of Paul Walker better than I could have ever expected (so many times I was waiting for him to die on-screen). 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Broncofan

[ET80]

27 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

It seemed more like "hey we need time to get the regular cast back, here's our fill-in".  

It was a classic case of "Coy and Vance Duke" holding down the fort. 

Bow Wow, the Friday Night Lights kid who looks like Peyton Manning's illegitimate son, a bunch of slip and slide cars - could do worse without Dominic Totetta and crew, no?

[Broncofan]

13 minutes ago, EliteTexan80 said:

It was a classic case of "Coy and Vance Duke" holding down the fort. 

Bow Wow, the Friday Night Lights kid who looks like Peyton Manning's illegitimate son, a bunch of slip and slide cars - could do worse without Dominic Totetta and crew, no?

Yeah, it was fine.  It literally seemed so out of place, though.  Until they tied in Han's death with #7.   I can't really complain, though - keeping Han around gave us our first dose of Gal Gadot.  Man, that alone was reason to keep watching.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Broncofan

[theJ]

50 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

Do you really count Tokyo Drift as a movie?  I know, I know, Han died there.   It seemed more like "hey we need time to get the regular cast back, here's our fill-in".  

Not that FF is Masterpiece Theatre, lol.  It's a guilty pleasure.   Like enjoying WWE like we did as kids and in school.

I will give them credit, they handled the death of Paul Walker better than I could have ever expected (so many times I was waiting for him to die on-screen). 

Oh they ret-con'd the crap out of #3.  I didn't like it at the time, but after 5/6/7 i can get behind it.

The Paul Walker death prepared me for this IW movie better, that's for sure.  No movie could ever be as sad as the ending of FF7.  So i was probably one of the only happy people leaving the theater the other day when i saw IW.

[Broncofan]

15 minutes ago, theJ said:

Oh they ret-con'd the crap out of #3.  I didn't like it at the time, but after 5/6/7 i can get behind it.

The Paul Walker death prepared me for this IW movie better, that's for sure.  No movie could ever be as sad as the ending of FF7.  So i was probably one of the only happy people leaving the theater the other day when i saw IW.

Yeah, once they tied it into FF7, the retcon made it work.

Anyways, back to Infinity Wars.    God I love how much the cast just identifies with their role.   Instead of worrying about being typecast...they embrace it.

The original cast of Avengers (except Ruffalo) all got the same tattoo...not a temp one, either.    THAT's commitment.

 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Broncofan

[diamondbull424]

22 hours ago, fretgod99 said:

Why are we assuming this? This holds weight of we assume this. Your passive/active analysis hasn’t been demonstrated, just postulated. There is no reason to think that the Time Stone’s power is limited to the lifespan of the possessor. I get your reference to TSS but as has been stated, there is no indication that she was incapable of seeing anything beyond her death. She simply stated that all roads lead there. There’s a difference between “I cannot see beyond this point” and “I have no future beyond this point”.

Her statement that she can’t see beyond the moment of her death are I think intentionally vague  can she not see anything or can she not see a way around it? So you can assume the limitation that you do, but it is no more supported in the MCU than the other.

I understood the Time Stone’s power to give the possessor the ability to set themselves as an observer outside the timeline. It gives them the ability to see possibilities, extending to them the apparent ability to influence the future course of events, but in a particularly limited fashion. Regardless, if all possibilities lead to one outcome, such as TSS’s death, there is nothing to influence.

 

Quote

@Broncofan

Again, though - Again, though - you are making an assumption that The Ancient One can't actually see past her death.   What she said - she couldn't see any outcome except her own death.  She wasn't looking for an outcome other than her death.  She saw none after so many attempts - because there weren't any, or after enough attempts (1 billion?  whatever # lol)....at some point, she accepted it.”

I will just quote these together since they pretty much are saying similar things at their core.

I’m simply highlighting some of the main points you have both made. After rewatching the movie, I disagree completely that we are not being given clarity into what she is saying. I disagree that this is ambiguous.

Quote

The Ancient One’s final speech

“I’ve spent so many years peering through time, looking at this exact moment.

But I CAN’T see past it.

I’ve prevented countless terrible futures. And after each one there’s always another. And they ALL lead here. But never FURTHER.

You wonder what I see in your (Strange’s) future??

I never saw your future. Only it’s possibilities.”

She does not say that she is ONLY looking at that moment and ignoring other moments/possibilities. She is literally saying that she CANNOT go further.

All of her timelines end with this moment and she cannot see past this.

Evidence is seen to my interpretation of  the text when she brings up Strange’s future. Someone who has seen countless futures and prevented the harsh/evil ones, is not able to see Strange’s future, but only possibilities. Why is that you ask?

Because the relevant definition to possibility is a thing that may be chosen or done out of several possible alternatives.

Said another way, “possibilities” relate to choice; whereas outcomes are past tense and relate to the implications of those actions, the future.

With TAO she is able to see the decisions of Strange. But the future remains hidden from  TAO past this.

Her number one goal is to protect the universe and she’s willing to circumvent rules to do it. She would not hesitate to view past this barrier Of time, if she could. But she has stated that she can’t. I honestly don’t see where there is ambiguity.

[fretgod99]

10 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

You have to have joy in the suffering of those around you. He does not. He see's the end as joyful because he views it as salvation. Just because someone who is willing to die for their beliefs because they believe eternal paradise will be their reward, you wouldn't consider them suicidal would you? No they may very much enjoy life and their loved ones, but martyrdom is a calling to those put on that position to have to choose. It's a different view point and like I said Thanos is more of a zealot then anything.

I don’t think it’s a leap to say he enjoys what he is doing, especially in regards to some of the people he kills first hand, the ploys he sets up, and the like. He’s certainly not Hela who gets an almost orgasmic glee from killing others. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t his own particular brand of evil.

What you’re arguing is essentially if Thanos believes fervently enough that his actions, which would be roundly recognized as evil, are for the larger benefit of the universe, then he’s not actually evil. I don’t think that’s generally how it works. He is forcing his will on everybody else, very much against their wishes. He is a tyrant.

[Broncofan]

22 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

 

I will just quote these together since they pretty much are saying similar things at their core.

I’m simply highlighting some of the main points you have both made. After rewatching the movie, I disagree completely that we are not being given clarity into what she is saying. I disagree that this is ambiguous.

She does not say that she is ONLY looking at that moment and ignoring other moments/possibilities. She is literally saying that she CANNOT go further.

All of her timelines end with this moment and she cannot see past this.

Evidence is seen to my interpretation of  the text when she brings up Strange’s future. Someone who has seen countless futures and prevented the harsh/evil ones, is not able to see Strange’s future, but only possibilities. Why is that you ask?

Because the relevant definition to possibility is a thing that may be chosen or done out of several possible alternatives.

Said another way, “possibilities” relate to choice; whereas outcomes are past tense and relate to the implications of those actions, the future.

With TAO she is able to see the decisions of Strange. But the future remains hidden from  TAO past this.

Her number one goal is to protect the universe and she’s willing to circumvent rules to do it. She would not hesitate to view past this barrier Of time, if she could. But she has stated that she can’t. I honestly don’t see where there is ambiguity.

The context matters though - the first scene was where Strange realizes that she's talking about her own death, and the fact she didn't see any other outcome.   She can't see past her own death, because there is no other outcome.    And again, she's chosen to follow rules and only broke them when absolutely necessary.   She couldn't prevent her death, then by rule, the role passed to her successor.   And her responsibility to look further.    

As for the last piece of dialogue - you bolded the 2nd last but not the last line - she didn't see his future, only its possibilities.   Meaning that she didn't see his future as fixed.  She saw multiple possibilities - which again, strongly suggests the ability to see further.   But by dying, and following the rules set aside, she went no further - if she can't prevent her death, she can't go further as her role is now over.  Not that she can't because her death prevents it.   That's how I took it.   Again, the context matters - remember that Strange is already doing things that the Ancient One wouldn't do, as a rule follower.   To me, if the Ancient One can't prevent her own death - then to her, it's as far as she goes.   She can't see any further because she can't find a way to prevent her end, and the rules of conduct say stop. 

I don't know that I'm going to convince you, but to be fair, there is no foundation for how time travel works.  So I get why you feel as you do.  I just see it differently in what you see as lazy writing, I see as brilliant.   If it was lazy, it wouldn't generate equally passionate discussion.   It's also a topic that since we don't have established hard-set rules, well, it's going to be hard to agree on everything.  Either way, though, excellent discussion.  

Edited May 9, 2018 by Broncofan

[fretgod99]

I indicated what her last statement was in one of the sentences right before you bolded. Her saying she can’t see beyond her death is, again, ambiguous. Is she unable to see anything beyond her death or is she unable to see her future continuing beyond that point? Also, you’re assuming she’s ever seen definite futures of anything, rather than possibilities. There’s no real support for that, either. She could see possibilities and winnow away the undesirable outcomes by taking certain actions, thereby affecting the future, just like Strange on Titan. But if all roads lead to one outcome, regardless of the number of possible routes (such as with her death), she cannot change what happens.

Saying she only sees possibilities of Strange’s future (beyond her death) is basically exactly what Strange did on Titan; he looked at 14M possibilities of the future, including those beyond his death. So there you go, we just demonstrated that what Strange did is the same thing TSS did.

[THE DUKE]

I'll also restate that we are given no declarative statement that she used the time stone.  I doubt it's the only way to "look" through time given all the spells and such, though it it's likely the strongest and one that can actually manipulate time.

Edited May 9, 2018 by THE DUKE

[diamondbull424]

18 hours ago, THE DUKE said:

I'll also restate that we are given no declarative statement that she used the time stone.  I doubt it's the only way to "look" through time given all the spells and such, though it it's likely the strongest and one that can actually manipulate time.

While I quote this, my response is to all of the similar viewpoints. Just don’t feel like finding them all to quote.

=====================

My argument hasn’t changed from the beginning. A good narrative provides established rules from which the narrative is based upon.

In the entirety of the Marvel universe there have only been 13 individuals (not including wielders of the time stone) who are possessed of Chronokinesis (time manipulation). Of all these individuals, only four have shown an ability to see time: Vulcan and Sway (two mutants) are able to see events of the past only and only on a small scale.

The other mutants are only able to traverse through time, not see it. They can essentially travel from channel 1 to channel 2, but not to a plane where they can see all channels simultaneously (omniscience).

While the White Phoenix (Phoenix Force/Jean Grey) of the Crown (Goddess of Life/Death energy) and Kronos (god of time) are able to see ALL time.

Now there ARE beings who are immortal and thus exist outside the realms of time (such as Dormammu). These beings were created before time and thus not effected by it as a concept.

The magic that Doctor Strange and other sorcerers use are drawn from other dimensions (stated in the movie). 

For instance, Dormammu’s dark dimension does not have time, thus drawing power from this dimension one can keep from aging ala The Ancient One.

Another dimension such as demonic limbo has stepping disks that allows for travel there, thus conjuring them into our reality, one can create stepping disks to “step in air” like we see from Baron Mordo in the scene where he is sparring with Strange.

Magic as explained in Doctor Strange isn’t simply the ability to make up stuff as you see fit, but rather to utilize different dimensions in our reality to circumvent its laws.

Essentially a sorcerer is like someone from 2018 going back into the dark ages and using future tech that they don’t have access to in order to circumvent their “reality” of what is possible. MCU sorcerers use their other dimension “tech” to circumvent our present reality. Thus more simply said, one might call a sorcerer a “dimensional scientist.”

===================

Quote

The One Above All (beyond all word)

The HOTU (the word)

Phoenix Force (the force produced by all words)

The Living Tribunal (judger of all words)

Now I say all of the above with purpose. My purpose is to explain that outside of true marvel cosmic entities above:

There are none that have time oversight. Kronos is essentially to time what someone in possession of the time stone is, a herald of its power. Only he is an eternal herald. As such he has time oversight.

Back to your original point of The Ancient One. The Ancient One could only “see” the possibilities of time with the stone because it would make her a herald of its power. Outside of that there would be no way for a sorcerer to be a herald over time. 

The reason being that Sorcers are scientists using “tech” from other dimensions. There are no other dimensions in which time can be viewed outside of itself, except one.

This is the white hot room (Phoenix force’s nexus of all force of all things), which isn’t so much a dimension but something beyond dimensional concept. Only the true Phoenix Force may grant inclusion into it.

Thus a sorcerer as explained by the MCU in Doctor Strange would have no such power over time without the eye of Agamotto/time stone.

Edited May 9, 2018 by diamondbull424

[skywlker32]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

While I quote this, my response is to all of the similar viewpoints. Just don’t feel like finding them all to quote.

=====================

My argument hasn’t changed from the beginning. A good narrative provides established rules from which the narrative is based upon.

In the entirety of the Marvel universe there have only been 13 individuals (not including wielders of the time stone) who are possessed of Chronokinesis (time manipulation). Of all these individuals, only four have shown an ability to see time: Vulcan and Sway (two mutants) are able to see events of the past only and only on a small scale.

The other mutants are only able to traverse through time, not see it. They can essentially travel from channel 1 to channel 2, but not to a plane where they can see all channels simultaneously (omniscience).

While the White Phoenix (Phoenix Force/Jean Grey) of the Crown (Goddess of Life/Death energy) and Kronos (god of time) are able to see ALL time.

Now there ARE beings who are immortal and thus exist outside the realms of time (such as Dormammu). These beings were created before time and thus not effected by it as a concept.

The magic that Doctor Strange and other sorcerers use are drawn from other dimensions (stated in the movie). 

For instance, Dormammu’s dark dimension does not have time, thus drawing power from this dimension one can keep from aging ala The Ancient One.

Another dimension such as demonic limbo has stepping disks that allows for travel there, thus conjuring them into our reality, one can create stepping disks to “step in air” like we see from Baron Mordo in the scene where he is sparring with Strange.

Magic as explained in Doctor Strange isn’t simply the ability to make up stuff as you see fit, but rather to utilize different dimensions in our reality to circumvent its laws.

Essentially a sorcerer is like someone from 2018 going back into the dark ages and using future tech that they don’t have access to in order to circumvent their “reality” of what is possible. MCU sorcerers use their other dimension “tech” to circumvent our present reality. Thus more simply said, one might call a sorcerer a “dimensional scientist.”

===================

Now I say all of the above with purpose. My purpose is to explain that outside of true marvel cosmic entities above:

There are none that have time oversight. Kronos is essentially to time what someone in possession of the time stone is, a herald of its power. Only he is an eternal herald. As such he has time oversight.

Back to your original point of The Ancient One. The Ancient One could only “see” the possibilities of time with the stone because it would make her a herald of its power. Outside of that there would be no way for a sorcerer to be a herald over time. 

The reason being that Sorcers are scientists using “tech” from other dimensions. There are no other dimensions in which time can be viewed outside of itself, except one.

This is the white hot room (Phoenix force’s nexus of all force of all things), which isn’t so much a dimension but something beyond dimensional concept. Only the true Phoenix Force may grant inclusion into it.

Thus a sorcerer as explained by the MCU in Doctor Strange would have no such power over time without the eye of Agamotto/time stone.

Those are all reasons outside of MCU, as MCU is separate from Marvel Comics.

The main thing that I see, as Fretgod pointed out, is that the Ancient One did see possibilities of Dr. Strange's future. That is also what Dr. Strange did in Infinity Wars. He saw many possibilities of what could happen.

[Calvert28]

17 hours ago, fretgod99 said:

I don’t think it’s a leap to say he enjoys what he is doing, especially in regards to some of the people he kills first hand, the ploys he sets up, and the like. He’s certainly not Hela who gets an almost orgasmic glee from killing others. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t his own particular brand of evil.

What you’re arguing is essentially if Thanos believes fervently enough that his actions, which would be roundly recognized as evil, are for the larger benefit of the universe, then he’s not actually evil. I don’t think that’s generally how it works. He is forcing his will on everybody else, very much against their wishes. He is a tyrant.

He enjoys getting the stones. It bringing him one step closer to rebalancing the universe. But everything done is done to achieve the end result. Like I said that conversation he had with Gammora is him leveling with her. And he makes it implied that this is not something he enjoys doing, but something he "has" to do because he alone has the will and conviction to see it through. When she told him she always hated his throne, he told her he had hoped one day she would sit in it. He is a tyrant, but absolute power was not his ultimate goal. That comment made about having Gammora as his successor and him having a peaceful ending the one he told to Tony Stark proves he is not evil. In fact there is multiple instances this is the case. But that ending completely negates any other argument that can be made he is evil. He was truthful with what he said, and considering he was a god gave it up immediately after he finished his calling to "save" the universe. All that power he had at his disposal. It means self interest was not his motivation

Also tyrant does not mean that your evil either. There are many people in history who held near to absolute power and still used it for good. Always giving into the public or popular opinion is not always strong and wise leader, and honestly how right and morale is society in that regard? But it is impossible to have so much power at your disposal with so many lives you are responsible for and be completely good and righteous. Because there is no right answer that high up that benefits everyone, what you give to someone almost always has to be taken from someone else. Thanos had an extreme view of this, yea he's mad. I would never dispute that. Yea hes a tyrant I will not dispute this. But nothing I have seen from him leads me to believe he is an evil character. Again im not saying he's right. But he takes no joy in any of this other then the end result. Child Gamorra even asks him, what did it cost, and he replies "everything". He gave up everything he loved in order to see this through. He sacrificed everything he loved to see this through. Evil is incapable of making a true sacrifice like that.