Official Pistons Thread: Offseason

[catcheryea]

why are you the way that you are

 

[winitall]

28 minutes ago, catcheryea said:

why are you the way that you are

 

The funny part is that Duren is clearly better than Wiseman in pretty much every way but of course Duren is the one coming off the bench.  

[catcheryea]

13 minutes ago, winitall said:

The funny part is that Duren is clearly better than Wiseman in pretty much every way but of course Duren is the one coming off the bench.  

without exaggeration, the only thing wiseman does better than duren is hit hook shots. unfortunately casey's apple watch is 17 years slow because it's not 2006

[catcheryea]

just needed to come in here and scream

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[catcheryea]

fire dwane casey

[catcheryea]

dwane casey is on the verge of winning less than 80 games in the last 4 seasons and i genuinely don't know if there's a coach with a colder seat

[Sllim Pickens]

On 4/1/2023 at 10:29 AM, catcheryea said:

dwane casey is on the verge of winning less than 80 games in the last 4 seasons and i genuinely don't know if there's a coach with a colder seat

https://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/2023/04/04/ramblings-its-time-for-the-pistons-to-make-a-big-change/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wdiv&fbclid=IwAR1Mg6s5L4eVenq_cpNUr9ewewYBlbay3BkI_Av1zWs2bSN84yoC6IVzpfo&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

[catcheryea]

8 hours ago, Sllim Pickens said:

https://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/2023/04/04/ramblings-its-time-for-the-pistons-to-make-a-big-change/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wdiv&fbclid=IwAR1Mg6s5L4eVenq_cpNUr9ewewYBlbay3BkI_Av1zWs2bSN84yoC6IVzpfo&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

troy won't fire him because once you fire casey that means you are actually trying to win games and not just "oh yeah we want to compete this year" bull****. and once you fire casey and hire a real coach with the intent of winning games you then have to go out and actually win games. and when you have to actually go out and win games with a roster that doesn't make any sense and doesn't compliment, and, in fact, actively hurts, the 3 best young players on the team, then people will start to question why the roster was built this way. and when people realize that weaver doesn't have any idea how to build a roster, around his young guys, or otherwise, then his seat starts to get hot

[MOSteelers56]

10 hours ago, catcheryea said:

troy won't fire him because once you fire casey that means you are actually trying to win games and not just "oh yeah we want to compete this year" bull****. and once you fire casey and hire a real coach with the intent of winning games you then have to go out and actually win games. and when you have to actually go out and win games with a roster that doesn't make any sense and doesn't compliment, and, in fact, actively hurts, the 3 best young players on the team, then people will start to question why the roster was built this way. and when people realize that weaver doesn't have any idea how to build a roster, around his young guys, or otherwise, then his seat starts to get hot

This roster makes a whole lot more sense with a healthy Cade. I think it's hard for emotions to not take over when we're getting mollywhopped every night, but I think that needs to be put into perspective. 

[catcheryea]

1 hour ago, MOSteelers56 said:

This roster makes a whole lot more sense with a healthy Cade. I think it's hard for emotions to not take over when we're getting mollywhopped every night, but I think that needs to be put into perspective. 

i think it makes even less sense with cade. you have two guards whose best asset is getting to the paint, forcing help, and then throwing a lob, making a pocket pass, or finding a shooter on the perimeter. troy seems pretty intent on playing two bigs together regardless of the fact that stewart is the only maybe neutral shooter of the four he's acquired. if you play any of the other three together (and really honestly nobody respects stew's shot at this point so it's closer to all four) you're clogging the paint which means the defense doesn't have to rotate on a drive because the help is already standing right there. let's say there duren is rolling after setting a screen, he's rolling straight into a help defender between he and the rim because wiseman's or bagley's man has been there the whole possession. you're also removing one shooter from the equation which means one less option on a kickout if you can force a rotation. even if the floor is spread, the defense is always going to rotate off whichever big you have in the corner because they'll happily give up a bagley 3 instead of a layup or dunk

there's a stat that shows how much playing two bigs has prevented ivey from getting to the rim. he's taking 2 or 3 fewer shots at the rim than he does when he plays with just one big, and he's shooting like 10%+ worse at the rim

sure the offense would look better with cade than killian because killian but it would be the result of brute forcing things rather than having a cogent gameplan

in the ideal world an offensive possession looks like this. cade - duren pnr, cade gets to the rim, depending on how the big or the help reacts he has the option to hit duren or take a layup himself, if they over rotate and both get taken away, he can kick to either the corner for a 3 or to ivey who is either cutting from the slot or can catch and drive while his defender isn't squared up to him. at that point they're in a scramble and you should be able to find the open guy either inside or out. basically your entire system should revolve around cade and ivey creating advantages that make the defense have to defend 2 on 1 in space and have to concede something, but none of that matters if you're taking the paint away from yourself every possession

and that's just offense. you could honestly argue there are bigger issues with how this roster is set up to defend

[MOSteelers56]

I think this team is also going to look considerably different next year. This roster was meant to lose. A starting 5 of Duren, Wemby, FA, Ivey, and Cade is a good team. We're full of extra parts. We're looking for pieces that might contribute long term. We're not locked into anybody long term. I don't think it's quite as dire as you make it out to be. This team was middling for 10 years after the Going to Work team. Fans whined and cried to tear it down and rebuild. We tear it down to rebuild and everyone cries and whines. Tanking sucks, but if it ultimately puts a winner on the court, it's worth it. Granted I don't watch the games because I can't do that to myself so I have a different perspective. The thing that cleared my head about the Pistons was an article they did on DBB. They showed how few players on championship teams were actually drafted by that team. It's miniscule. These crap players, this glut of big men are going to be shipped off to bring in players that fit the team's vision. I agree that Casey needs to go and I feel like he will. 

[catcheryea]

12 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think this team is also going to look considerably different next year. This roster was meant to lose. A starting 5 of Duren, Wemby, FA, Ivey, and Cade is a good team. We're full of extra parts. We're looking for pieces that might contribute long term. We're not locked into anybody long term. I don't think it's quite as dire as you make it out to be. This team was middling for 10 years after the Going to Work team. Fans whined and cried to tear it down and rebuild. We tear it down to rebuild and everyone cries and whines. Tanking sucks, but if it ultimately puts a winner on the court, it's worth it. Granted I don't watch the games because I can't do that to myself so I have a different perspective. The thing that cleared my head about the Pistons was an article they did on DBB. They showed how few players on championship teams were actually drafted by that team. It's miniscule. These crap players, this glut of big men are going to be shipped off to bring in players that fit the team's vision. I agree that Casey needs to go and I feel like he will. 

first, i think banking on a 14% chance at the 1st pick to make the roster make sense is not how you should approach team building. i'm more than fine with tanking. they were terribly horribly mediocre for 10 years, blew it up for one year and got cade, that's not a problem for me. my issue is that at some point you need to move past the acquiring raw talent phase and into constructing a roster around your best talent (cade, ivey, duren) that covers for their weaknesses (shooting and spacing) and accentuates their strengths (paint touches and passing). if they won 12 games this year because you put ivey out there as the only guard and he didn't develop as a passer or shooter like he had or duren was completely lost that's one thing. but winning 16 games because you spend 16 seconds every other possession trying to force wiseman and bagley post ups or because you didn't have a wing who could do the things that omoruyi has brought to the table is both bad coaching and gming. i'm willing to give weaver more time because casey was a bad hire 5 years ago, should've been fired 3 years ago, shouldn't have gotten extended, and should be fired this year, but you have to give me some lifeline to hold onto that isn't just raw talent flashes from the rookies

we know without a doubt these players will be on the team next year: cade, ivey, duren, 1st round pick

these guys will be on the team unless they get traded for picks or more young pieces: bogey, burks, stewart

these guys will likely be on the team because they're negative assets you can't trade: killian, bagley, wiseman

that's a full 10 man rotation right there of guys who (besides cade and the pick) played large minutes and contributed to the worst record in the league. there's also livers and omoruyi who have team options that may or may not be exercised. whether or not all of those guys should be in the rotation is another question, but bagley and wiseman are making too much to be sitting if healthy. aside from internal development from the first group, stew, potentially wiseman, and maybe a legitimate non-cory joseph bench pg to replace killian, how much better is that rotation going to be next year?

you're right nobody is locked in for the long, long term, but if they go into next year with the same gameplan as they ended this one, what are they going to learn about anybody that they didn't already know? the best stretches of cade last year was playing with bagley as the only big on the floor who provided vertical spacing, and the best stretch of ivey this year was that post-paris, pre-trade deadline lineup with burks, bogey, bey, and duren. every time duren has to share the floor with another non-spacing big, you take away any chance he has to show off and develop his passing

i don't think it's dire because those three young guys have shown how good they can be at various points this year even with everything from both teams trying to prevent it but i'm well past the blind faith it'll work out stage and deeply into the show me literally anything positive from someone else in the organization stage

[catcheryea]

what watching 75 pistons games does to a mf

[BStanRamFan]

Just an outsider looking in that watched a decent amount of Pistons games on League Pass this year (betting reasons).

I love the young core of Cade, Ivey, Duren, Bagley, Wiseman. Even enjoy Livers game.

If they can get Wemby and add 2-3 vets, this can be a team that easily jumps into the play-in and possibly in that 5-6 spot as early as next season. Also, this Casey needs to go.

FA Vets I'd keep my eye on though: Harrison Barnes, Kyle Kuzma, Grant Williams. Guys who are still in their prime, but can show younger guys how its done and are willing to be a part of something beyond mentoring. Just food for thought. Future is bright.

[Sllim Pickens]

22 minutes ago, catcheryea said:

first, i think banking on a 14% chance at the 1st pick to make the roster make sense is not how you should approach team building. i'm more than fine with tanking. they were terribly horribly mediocre for 10 years, blew it up for one year and got cade, that's not a problem for me. my issue is that at some point you need to move past the acquiring raw talent phase and into constructing a roster around your best talent (cade, ivey, duren) that covers for their weaknesses (shooting and spacing) and accentuates their strengths (paint touches and passing). if they won 12 games this year because you put ivey out there as the only guard and he didn't develop as a passer or shooter like he had or duren was completely lost that's one thing. but winning 16 games because you spend 16 seconds every other possession trying to force wiseman and bagley post ups or because you didn't have a wing who could do the things that omoruyi has brought to the table is both bad coaching and gming. i'm willing to give weaver more time because casey was a bad hire 5 years ago, should've been fired 3 years ago, shouldn't have gotten extended, and should be fired this year, but you have to give me some lifeline to hold onto that isn't just raw talent flashes from the rookies

we know without a doubt these players will be on the team next year: cade, ivey, duren, 1st round pick

these guys will be on the team unless they get traded for picks or more young pieces: bogey, burks, stewart

these guys will likely be on the team because they're negative assets you can't trade: killian, bagley, wiseman

that's a full 10 man rotation right there of guys who (besides cade and the pick) played large minutes and contributed to the worst record in the league. there's also livers and omoruyi who have team options that may or may not be exercised. whether or not all of those guys should be in the rotation is another question, but bagley and wiseman are making too much to be sitting if healthy. aside from internal development from the first group, stew, potentially wiseman, and maybe a legitimate non-cory joseph bench pg to replace killian, how much better is that rotation going to be next year?

you're right nobody is locked in for the long, long term, but if they go into next year with the same gameplan as they ended this one, what are they going to learn about anybody that they didn't already know? the best stretches of cade last year was playing with bagley as the only big on the floor who provided vertical spacing, and the best stretch of ivey this year was that post-paris, pre-trade deadline lineup with burks, bogey, bey, and duren. every time duren has to share the floor with another non-spacing big, you take away any chance he has to show off and develop his passing

i don't think it's dire because those three young guys have shown how good they can be at various points this year even with everything from both teams trying to prevent it but i'm well past the blind faith it'll work out stage and deeply into the show me literally anything positive from someone else in the organization stage

I completely agree with all of this.  It's time to make some smart moves now and stop with the lottery tickets. 

Wiseman was a dumb move because he didn't fit on the team.  If he was cheaper and willing to be a 15-20 min a game big behind Duren, then great but if you want him to start over Duren and get more minutes than Duren, it hurts us more long term. This is the move that made me start to lose faith, and the coaching since has me completely out on Casey at this point.  

Resigning Bagley last year was a dumb move because he didn't provide anything special. 

The trades for Bogey and Burks were solid at the time to bring in some veteran leadership but that isnt working out well either.  

As you said the core is solid, the potential is there with all of them but we need to build a team around them.