3rd Round Pick (88th Overall): Oren Burks [LB; Vanderbilt]

[MantyWrestler]

44 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I still wouldn't make the argument that Gute really values the off-ball LB position very highly.  Ted Thompson drafted Brady Poppinga at 125, Abdul Hodge at 67, Carl Bradford at 121, Jake Ryan at 129, and Blake Martinez at 131.  With the excpetion of Hodges, it seems like the value for Ted was late 4th, early 5th for LBs.  I'm not sure Gute selecting a LB at 88 really is significantly different than what TT did.  IF Gute would have selected Edmunds, LVE, or Rashaan Evans we could have this discussion.  But Burks went in the same round as guys like Fred Warner, Malik Jefferson, Jerome Baker, and Dorian O'Daniel.  I'm not sure any of those players are any different than Burks.

I never said Gute did either. While I like the idea of adding an elite level athlete we will stilL have to wait to see how Gute values the position over time.

My point remains, great defenses almost always are sting up the middle. Martinez looks like a nice start, Burks could be the other piece, we will see. 

I’ll go the other way, start naming great defenses with crappy ILB play. Serious question, maybe I’m missing something. 

[Blink]

2 hours ago, Donzo said:

 

That is not accurate... That perception is highly regarded around here, but still inaccurate.

With TT's highest draft pick ever, he drafted a very athletic ILB. For whatever reason, Hawk lost his athletic ability pretty quickly, but he was very athletic coming put of college (he tested better than Mathews).

Bishop and Barrington weren't very athletic, but they were 6th and 7th round picks; and, Bishop still had a couple excellent years before getting hurt (might not win a Super Bowl without him).

With Ryan and Martinez, they do not fit the mold of "old school 250 pound downhill type of guys".  I know Packer fans love to bellyache about their perceived lack of athletic ability, but they're both athletic, quick players. They are not plus athletes, but they're not below average athletes like Bishop and Barrington.

 

 

 

 

 

My point stands tbh, Hawk was the consensus safest pick but outside of him nothing besides late round picks.  It’s pretty obvious to me that he did not spend hardly any draft capital of FA players, which most likely means he didn’t prioritize the position at all.

Outside of Joe Thomas almost all of them were bigger guys or at least more suited to the traditional base ILBers, they might not all meet the 250 threshold but they were clearly run defenders first and foremost, and lackin in coverage.

Only JT and late attempts at safeties playing ILB did they even pretend to get up to speed with the hybrid players that are so popular today 

[TheOnlyThing]

2 hours ago, Donzo said:

That is not accurate... That perception is highly regarded around here, but still inaccurate.

With TT's highest draft pick ever, he drafted a very athletic ILB. For whatever reason, Hawk lost his athletic ability pretty quickly, but he was very athletic coming put of college (he tested better than Mathews).

Bishop and Barrington weren't very athletic, but they were 6th and 7th round picks; and, Bishop still had a couple excellent years before getting hurt (might not win a Super Bowl without him).

With Ryan and Martinez, they do not fit the mold of "old school 250 pound downhill type of guys".  I know Packer fans love to bellyache about their perceived lack of athletic ability, but they're both athletic, quick players. They are not plus athletes, but they're not below average athletes like Bishop and Barrington.

Nope.

Hawk was NOT drafted to be an inside linebacker.

He was drafted to be, and played, at OUTSIDE linebacker in the 4-3 defense the Packers employed in 2006, 2007, and 2008.

He moved to inside linebacker in Capers' 3-4 defense in 2009.

[Shanedorf]

Every year Bob McGinn does a draft series, here's a snippet on Oren Burks. Including comments from various scouts.

Don't care if you loathe Mcginn, take it for what its worth to you...

 

OREN BURKS, LB, Vanderbilt

NFC scout: “Smart as a whip. I don’t think he was as good as (Zach) Cunningham last year. He thinks he is. There’s no doubt this guy will play. What a great kid. He’s so damn smart. This is the type of kid you search for.”

AFC scout: “Very versatile and productive.”

NFC scout: “Has size, athletic ability and range. Good instincts against the run. Can roam, match up and blitz on third down. Tough. Good ball skills. Can get stronger.”

AFC scout: “He’s a former safety converted to outside linebacker and then inside linebacker. Long, rangy and explosive when healthy. Has played through injury – ankle, knee – much of this season.”

AFC scout: “Polished leader. Mature. Well-liked and highly respected by the team and staff. Not a vocal leader. Reliable and smart.”

OREN BURKS, Vanderbilt

Size: 6-3, 232. 40: 4.62.

Age: 23. From: Fairfax Station, Va. (South County High School).

Ran 4.62 at the combine but did only drill work at pro day. His vertical jump of 39 ½ tied Boise State’s Leighton Vander Esch as the best of the top 20 linebackers. His broad jump of 10-11 led the position. Handled just 18 reps on the bench press. Posted scores of 20 and 24 on the Wonderlic. Arms were long (33 3/8), hands were small (9 1/8). Short shuttle of 4.15, 3-cone of 6.82 both were excellent. Agent is Stephen Caric.

Fifth-year senior. Recruited as a linebacker but moved to free safety and redshirted in 2013. Started seven of eight games at FS in 2014 and all 12 games in ’15. Started 12 games at OLB in ’16 and 11 games at ILB in a 3-4 defense in ’17, replacing Zach Cunningham (Texans, second round). Weighed 222 in April 2017. Served as President of Vanderbilt’s Student-Athlete Advisory Committee.* *

Finished with 237 tackles (15 ½ for loss), 4 ½ sacks, five interceptions, two forced fumbles and 26 passes defensed. 

 

** Only player in ENTIRE 2018 draft who can make that claim.

[Lodestar]

^^ Daaaamn! That is some gooood stuff.

[Arthur Penske]

1 hour ago, Shanedorf said:

Every year Bob McGinn does a draft series, here's a snippet on Oren Burks. Including comments from various scouts.

Don't care if you loathe Mcginn, take it for what its worth to you...

 

OREN BURKS, LB, Vanderbilt

NFC scout: “Smart as a whip. I don’t think he was as good as (Zach) Cunningham last year. He thinks he is. There’s no doubt this guy will play. What a great kid. He’s so damn smart. This is the type of kid you search for.”

AFC scout: “Very versatile and productive.”

NFC scout: “Has size, athletic ability and range. Good instincts against the run. Can roam, match up and blitz on third down. Tough. Good ball skills. Can get stronger.”

AFC scout: “He’s a former safety converted to outside linebacker and then inside linebacker. Long, rangy and explosive when healthy. Has played through injury – ankle, knee – much of this season.”

AFC scout: “Polished leader. Mature. Well-liked and highly respected by the team and staff. Not a vocal leader. Reliable and smart.”

OREN BURKS, Vanderbilt

Size: 6-3, 232. 40: 4.62.

Age: 23. From: Fairfax Station, Va. (South County High School).

Ran 4.62 at the combine but did only drill work at pro day. His vertical jump of 39 ½ tied Boise State’s Leighton Vander Esch as the best of the top 20 linebackers. His broad jump of 10-11 led the position. Handled just 18 reps on the bench press. Posted scores of 20 and 24 on the Wonderlic. Arms were long (33 3/8), hands were small (9 1/8). Short shuttle of 4.15, 3-cone of 6.82 both were excellent. Agent is Stephen Caric.

Fifth-year senior. Recruited as a linebacker but moved to free safety and redshirted in 2013. Started seven of eight games at FS in 2014 and all 12 games in ’15. Started 12 games at OLB in ’16 and 11 games at ILB in a 3-4 defense in ’17, replacing Zach Cunningham (Texans, second round). Weighed 222 in April 2017. Served as President of Vanderbilt’s Student-Athlete Advisory Committee.* *

Finished with 237 tackles (15 ½ for loss), 4 ½ sacks, five interceptions, two forced fumbles and 26 passes defensed. 

 

** Only player in ENTIRE 2018 draft who can make that claim.

Can you put it up for the rest of the picks?

[HyponGrey]

8 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

I don’t think he was as good as (Zach) Cunningham last year. He thinks he is.

This feels like a backhanded compliment to me

[Scoremore]

Didn't like the pick but looking back guess he was the last ILB of this type left on the board.  Like the intelligence hope it translates on the field.  Looks raw on tape and no doubt he'll have a learning curve as all rooks do.  One thing I am relatively sure of is he can cover.  Kid is very fast sideline to sideline much in the same mold as Smith who was taken by Chicago.  Looks promising on paper understand why they took him now.  Really important for this kid to get up to speed as early as possible.  Knocks on him lacks instincts and bad tackling.  He'll need reps and some hard coaching.  Went from hate to luke warm I'll take a wait and see on this kid.  We'll know a lot more come training camp.  Kid is going to frustrate us at times this year.  Like our young receivers throw him into the fire.  Mistakes are going to be made for sure.  It's if they learn and correct them that matters.  

[ThatJerkDave]

15 hours ago, CWood21 said:

Find me a good defense where a defense has average pass rushers and strong LBs.

Early-Mid 2000s Bears didn't have an amazing pass rush.  But they did have a great LB group and pretty good secondary.

[Lodestar]

1 hour ago, DavidatMIZZOU said:

Early-Mid 2000s Bears didn't have an amazing pass rush.  But they did have a great LB group and pretty good secondary.

I would add the Panthers of a couple years ago. They had a good pass rush but it was led by the interior guys.

[SSG]

17 hours ago, Blink said:

I’m super happy with the pick because it shows a difference in mindset between Gute and TT regarding the ILB position in general.

 

TT in large part ignored the position in general, and the few times he did draft one at all it was an old school 250 pound downhill type of guy.  Gute right away adds what many have been calling for: real athleticism in the middle of the field.

No idea if he will be good or not, but IMO it shows that Gute recognizes this team needs to get with the program and modernize.

Tough to rip Thompson when he spent a higher pick on a more athletic player to fill this EXACT role just last year.  Josh Jones who is both faster and stronger was drafted just last year in the 2nd to play that hybrid role.

[Norm]

9 minutes ago, SSG said:

Tough to rip Thompson when he spent a higher pick on a more athletic player to fill this EXACT role just last year.  Josh Jones who is both faster and stronger was drafted just last year in the 2nd to play that hybrid role.

Nah Ted sucks. Gute is way different in every aspect. He's the anti Ted

/s

Gute looks pretty good so far IMO but he's not going to be some crazy Earth shattering different guy. But people are dead set on wanting that that I think they start seeing things that aren't there.

[vegas492]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

Tough to rip Thompson when he spent a higher pick on a more athletic player to fill this EXACT role just last year.  Josh Jones who is both faster and stronger was drafted just last year in the 2nd to play that hybrid role.

Felt the same way about the Burks pick.  Didn't see the need with Josh there.

Guessing here that the safety/linebacker role swings more the way of the linebacker with Pettine than it did with Dom. 

While I"m no fan of the pick, I think we really gotta wait and see how Pettine will use both guys.  I have to admit that even I can see a defense that allows Jones to come up near the LOS while Burks is there and can backpedal/run and carry a slot guy or TE deep.....  

Point being, I think there are ways to use both guys effectively...and together.  

[TheOnlyThing]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

Tough to rip Thompson when he spent a higher pick on a more athletic player to fill this EXACT role just last year.  Josh Jones who is both faster and stronger was drafted just last year in the 2nd to play that hybrid role.

Or, now that Gut and Pettine have taken a fresh look and decided that the "faster and stronger" Josh Jones does NOT FILL the "hybrid" role Burks was drafted to plug and instead will move JJ back to safety, one could say that the the prior GM never adequately filled the gaping hole in the middle that was one of the centerpieces of Dom's D the prior 7 years.

 

[craig]

Critical question is whether guys who are "good athletes" will figure out how to become "good football players".  

We'll see how that goes. The hope is that settling down to one position, much will become more automatic and instinctive, and in due time that he'll become a good decision maker.