Rnd2 pick 25- DT P.J Hall

[NightTrainLane]

12 hours ago, daineraider said:

The GMs are wrong just as often, FYI.  There isn’t some perfect formula out there that gives you A+ picks every round.  Most GMs fail more often than they hit.

Still doesn't change the truth in what he said though. And GMs "failing" has alot to do with players actions and situations out of their control. I said alot not all.

[daineraider]

8 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

Still doesn't change the truth in what he said though. And GMs "failing" has alot to do with players actions and situations out of their control. I said alot not all.

And it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of the picks that fans want turn out to be better than the GM picks.  People become apologists for the GMs just because some of us disagree with a pick.  Then it turns into I bet they know more than you etc.  I think it’s obvious they have more info, but that doesn’t make the pick anymore successful than the pick the fan wanted.  DJ Hayden is a perfect example, the consensus pick for our team on this forum was Star or Richardson.  As it turns out we would have had a much better pick with our opinions than RM did with all his info.

Im going to support our FO, Reggie, Gruden etc, but that doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with some of their decisions. 

[NightTrainLane]

Just now, daineraider said:

And it doesn’t change the fact that a lot of the picks that fans want turn out to be better than the GM picks.  People become apologists for the GMs just because some of us disagree with a pick.  Then it turns into I bet they know more than you etc.  I think it’s obvious they have more info, but that doesn’t make the pick anymore successful than the pick the fan wanted.  DJ Hayden is a perfect example, the consensus pick for our team on this forum was Star or Richardson.  As it turns out we would have had a much better pick with our opinions than RM did with all his info.

Im going to support our FO, Reggie, Gruden etc, but that doesn’t mean I can’t disagree with some of their decisions. 

Of course a group of thousands will guess a few guys right. And yes, that is what fans are doing because we have no idea about the guys true character, the situation he is walking away from, the one he is walking into and what is following him, his medicals(past an occasional tweet), NFL coaching standards, the specific coaches wants, the details of the scheme being run and dozens of other things we'll never have a clue about. So just taking the guy that we think is best from limited film study and various profile reads can look good at times but the grading curve really changes when more info is added.

It's really apples to oranges and shouldn't be compared. Most (meaning 99%) of fans wouldn't even qualify for a internship at a college no matter how many excel spreadsheets you have made. So, I'm not saying you can't disagree. Of course, you can. This isn't Russia. But don''t think for a second you're playing the same game or anywhere near the same level.

[daineraider]

4 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

Of course a group of thousands will guess a few guys right. And yes, that is what fans are doing because we have no idea about the guys true character, the situation he is walking away from, the one he is walking into and what is following him, his medicals(past an occasional tweet), NFL coaching standards, the specific coaches wants, the details of the scheme being run and dozens of other things we'll never have a clue about. So just taking the guy that we think is best from limited film study and various profile reads can look good at times but the grading curve really changes when more info is added.

It's really apples to oranges and shouldn't be compared. Most (meaning 99%) of fans wouldn't even qualify for a internship at a college no matter how many excel spreadsheets you have made. So, I'm not saying you can't disagree. Of course, you can. This isn't Russia. But don''t think for a second you're playing the same game or anywhere near the same level.

That’s exactly what we are doing on here.  Playing pretend GM and talking about our team, whether we agree or not.  I’m not pretending to know more than RM or Gruden, but that doesn’t mean they don’t make stupid decisions.  Getting an internship depends more on your degree and luck than it does on actual football knowledge.  Once again, I hope I’m wrong on at least 1 of our first 3 picks, but if our FO had Miller rated above James or Edmunds as overall prospects I question their rating system.  If they picked Miller over those two based solely on need I would understand.  That would just mean RM was overruled by Gruden and they were deviating from their MO of going BPA.

[NightTrainLane]

4 minutes ago, daineraider said:

That’s exactly what we are doing on here.  Playing pretend GM and talking about our team, whether we agree or not.  I’m not pretending to know more than RM or Gruden, but that doesn’t mean they don’t make stupid decisions.  Getting an internship depends more on your degree and luck than it does on actual football knowledge.  Once again, I hope I’m wrong on at least 1 of our first 3 picks, but if our FO had Miller rated above James or Edmunds as overall prospects I question their rating system.  If they picked Miller over those two based solely on need I would understand.  That would just mean RM was overruled by Gruden and they were deviating from their MO of going BPA.

Or what if they choose him based on both need and rating, in other words, how most create their board. I wouldn't presume to say that is how Reggie and Gruden did it because I don't know but it seems pretty likely.

[daineraider]

2 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

Or what if they choose him based on both need and rating, in other words, how most create their board. I wouldn't presume to say that is how Reggie and Gruden did it because I don't know but it seems pretty likely.

I agree and until KM fails I will try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I will still question the pick based on the players available at the time.  I would love for Miller to come in and take over at LT, but based on what I’ve seen it will take some time for him to develop into a starting LT in the NFL.  I’m hoping his faults were based on bad coaching at UCLA and he can come in and fix those feet/balance issues with NFL coaching.  I do feel that James and Edmunds were plug and plays week 1.  I also get frustrated with our lack of ability so sure up the LB position.  We seem to address everything pretty early except for LB.  Our MLB has been a musical chair position since Reggie got here.  I would like to see a leader in the middle for years to come.  That would help our D our immensely.

[NightTrainLane]

13 minutes ago, daineraider said:

I agree and until KM fails I will try to give him the benefit of the doubt, but I will still question the pick based on the players available at the time.  I would love for Miller to come in and take over at LT, but based on what I’ve seen it will take some time for him to develop into a starting LT in the NFL.  I’m hoping his faults were based on bad coaching at UCLA and he can come in and fix those feet/balance issues with NFL coaching.  I do feel that James and Edmunds were plug and plays week 1.  I also get frustrated with our lack of ability so sure up the LB position.  We seem to address everything pretty early except for LB.  Our MLB has been a musical chair position since Reggie got here.  I would like to see a leader in the middle for years to come.  That would help our D our immensely.

I didn''t even read this whole paragraph stopped after you said "until KM fails".

Yeah, we get it. You want a MLB picked in the 1st or 2nd. Repeating your frustrations does nothing but remind you about it and annoy others. But a guess that is half of this forum haha.

 

[daineraider]

10 minutes ago, NightTrainLane said:

I didn''t even read this whole paragraph stopped after you said "until KM fails".

Yeah, we get it. You want a MLB picked in the 1st or 2nd. Repeating your frustrations does nothing but remind you about it and annoy others. But a guess that is half of this forum haha.

 

That’s fine, you continue blindly following our FO that has given us one good season in the last 15 years and I will continue to be a realist.  If there was a history of success I would understand your position, but there hasn’t been much success so not sure how you apologists keep drinking the Kool aid with no results.  It’s just as annoying for us listening to your excuses as it is for you to listen to our complaints.

[NightTrainLane]

9 minutes ago, daineraider said:

That’s fine, you continue blindly following our FO that has given us one good season in the last 15 years and I will continue to be a realist.  If there was a history of success I would understand your position, but there hasn’t been much success so not sure how you apologists keep drinking the Kool aid with no results.  It’s just as annoying for us listening to your excuses as it is for you to listen to our complaints.

I'm not blindly following anyone.

And I did say it was half the forum.

[NickButera]

I'm skeptical that Reggie and/or Gruden came out and said they had gotten the top two pass rushing DTs on the board. Did they really have Hall ranked above Vea? That just seems odd.

[daineraider]

2 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

I'm not blindly following anyone.

And I did say it was half the forum.

It seems to be 50/50 on guys happy with draft and those that are upset.  Im very happy after round 3.  Im not upset with how this team is shaping up overall.  I think part of last years issues were due to effort and coaching.  Im optimistic going into the season.  We are solid at several key positions QB, OL(overall), DE, WR, and Im hoping our rookie DTs can make some noise.  Its obvious Im not super pumped about part of our draft, but Im still excited for this team regardless.

 

1 hour ago, NickButera said:

I'm skeptical that Reggie and/or Gruden came out and said they had gotten the top two pass rushing DTs on the board. Did they really have Hall ranked above Vea? That just seems odd.

Yeah, a few of their comments came as a little over the top, but I think they are excited about the guys we got.  There were several very good DTs in this draft and even though Vea is good at pass rushing, Im assuming they consider him a NT run stuffer(because of his size).  I think we got some good penetrating DTs though.  

[NightTrainLane]

2 minutes ago, NickButera said:

I'm skeptical that Reggie and/or Gruden came out and said they had gotten the top two pass rushing DTs on the board. Did they really have Hall ranked above Vea? That just seems odd.

I get where you are coming from but he said as a pass rushing DT. Vea was rated pretty highly overall but his pass rush stats are just avg. It's a testament to his highly rated run grade.

[Rich7sena]

23 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

I get where you are coming from but he said as a pass rushing DT. Vea was rated pretty highly overall but his pass rush stats are just avg. It's a testament to his highly rated run grade.

Vea actually graded out very well as a pass rusher according to PFF. His Pass Rush Productivity grade (10.3) was above Taven Bryan's (9.4) and Da'Ron Payne's (6.5). He also recorded more total pressures in 2017 than both.

That said, I could very easily see how, on the NFL level, a staff would project Vea's pass rush ability as inferior to both Hall and Hurst's. The latter led all top interior rushers in PFF's pass rush grade and total pressures. I think it's perfectly plausible that the staff graded Hall and Hurst as the top 2 interior pass rushers in this class. 

[reddevil]

1 hour ago, Rich7sena said:

Vea actually graded out very well as a pass rusher according to PFF. His Pass Rush Productivity grade (10.3) was above Taven Bryan's (9.4) and Da'Ron Payne's (6.5). He also recorded more total pressures in 2017 than both.

That said, I could very easily see how, on the NFL level, a staff would project Vea's pass rush ability as inferior to both Hall and Hurst's. The latter led all top interior rushers in PFF's pass rush grade and total pressures. I think it's perfectly plausible that the staff graded Hall and Hurst as the top 2 interior pass rushers in this class. 

Let's hope they can both do it! And if they both can't, you've got to hope than one of them can. Man, it would make so much difference if we could finally get a genuine threat to the QB up the middle.

[NightTrainLane]

1 hour ago, Rich7sena said:

Vea actually graded out very well as a pass rusher according to PFF. His Pass Rush Productivity grade (10.3) was above Taven Bryan's (9.4) and Da'Ron Payne's (6.5). He also recorded more total pressures in 2017 than both.

That said, I could very easily see how, on the NFL level, a staff would project Vea's pass rush ability as inferior to both Hall and Hurst's. The latter led all top interior rushers in PFF's pass rush grade and total pressures. I think it's perfectly plausible that the staff graded Hall and Hurst as the top 2 interior pass rushers in this class. 

Yeah, I don't sub to PFF anymore (just snipe the free stuff I can get)but I agree. Just meant I didn't see his pass grade as something special like his run grade or Hall or Hurst's pass grade. Just different players.