Nikola Jokic ATG

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, Mox said:

I have literally said "of finals casts". 

So all he needs to do is do it longer?

In the post I quoted, you said "Jokic easily won a title with a weak cast and according to you he's completely middling defensively. Wouldn't that mean he's pretty amazing offensively?"

That's easier said than done.

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

We all just watched Murray throughout the playoffs. For whatever reason, you seem to think to make Jokic as incredible as you seem to believe, you have to denigrate Murray. It's weak sauce.

You have zero consistency in your argument. Weak sauce.

Has nothing to do with downplaying Murray. I actually like him. Think he has a chance to keep growing. 

He's not as good as you guys think. You're falling for 2016 Kyrie all over again.

[Mox]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

In the post I quoted, you said "Jokic easily won a title with a weak cast and according to you he's completely middling defensively. Wouldn't that mean he's pretty amazing offensively?"

That's easier said than done.

From the start I've said finals cast. I didn't point it out that specific time.

Okay, but I'm not arguing longevity. I'm talking at their peak.

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, Mox said:

You have zero consistency in your argument. Weak sauce.

Has nothing to do with downplaying Murray. I actually like him. Think he has a chance to keep growing. 

He's not as good as you guys think. You're falling for 2016 Kyrie all over again.

I don't know many people who would argue that Kyle Lowry was better than Kyrie.

[jrry32]

Just now, Mox said:

Okay, but I'm not arguing longevity. I'm talking at their peak.

You're trying to argue "peak" based on 20ish playoff games. Jokic of the past three years is not as good or better than peak LeBron or Jordan offensively.

[Mox]

9 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I don't know many people who would argue that Kyle Lowry was better than Kyrie.

Yeah, people overvalue volume scoring. That's what I've been saying the whole time. Kyrie might be the easiest example of why. And to go back to the denigrating Murray part, saying he's not as good as a guy with consistent top 10-15 impact is hardly an insult. 

8 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

You're trying to argue "peak" based on 20ish playoff games. Jokic of the past three years is not as good or better than peak LeBron or Jordan offensively.

This is where we are getting off on the wrong foot. Why aren't the last three years as good as those guys?

[jrry32]

9 minutes ago, Mox said:

Yeah, people overvalue volume scoring. That's what I've been saying the whole time. Kyrie might be the easiest example of why. And to go back to the denigrating Murray part, saying he's not as good as a guy with consistent top 10-15 impact is hardly an insult. 

It was your Kyle Lowry comments that denigrated him.

Quote

This is where we are getting off on the wrong foot. Why aren't the last three years as good as those guys?

Peak LeBron had it all. When he flipped that switch, there wasn't a person on this earth who could stop him. The man was the ultimate trump card. He was capable of carrying teams with actual weak supporting casts to the NBA Finals. What are the odds prime LeBron's team gets swept in the second round or gentleman swept in the first round? And granted, the Warriors did win the Championship in 2021. But LeBron was just otherworldly. Jordan was the same way. 

Jokic somewhat reminds me of peak Steve Nash. Yes, Jokic is better. But both guys were absurdly efficient and elite ball distributors. Still, at the end of the day, I don't see the same trump card. Don't get me wrong. It was fun as hell watching Jokic this year in the playoffs. The man was on a heater and making absurdly difficult shots look easy. But if you ask me to pick between peak Jokic, LeBron, and Jordan in Game 7 of the Finals, even if we only consider offense, I am taking Jordan or LeBron.

[Mox]

1 hour ago, jrry32 said:

It was your Kyle Lowry comments that denigrated him.

Peak LeBron had it all. When he flipped that switch, there wasn't a person on this earth who could stop him. The man was the ultimate trump card. He was capable of carrying teams with actual weak supporting casts to the NBA Finals. What are the odds prime LeBron's team gets swept in the second round or gentleman swept in the first round? And granted, the Warriors did win the Championship in 2021. But LeBron was just otherworldly. Jordan was the same way. 

Jokic somewhat reminds me of peak Steve Nash. Yes, Jokic is better. But both guys were absurdly efficient and elite ball distributors. Still, at the end of the day, I don't see the same trump card. Don't get me wrong. It was fun as hell watching Jokic this year in the playoffs. The man was on a heater and making absurdly difficult shots look easy. But if you ask me to pick between peak Jokic, LeBron, and Jordan in Game 7 of the Finals, even if we only consider offense, I am taking Jordan or LeBron.

If I believe prime Kyle Lowry was a top 20 player because there is a lot of data implying that he is, and that Jamal Murray is not, do you believe that is denigration? I don't.

Every single team Kyrie Irving has ever played on has a better record without him than with him over his tenure there. Turns out having crazy handles and elite tough shot making ability doesn't actually make your team better if you consistently miss reads, can't score within the framework of an offense, offer little value elsewhere, and have negative value defensively. If you look at his box stats you'll see 27-5-6 on good efficiency and think he's a top 10 guy. Yet without LeBron he's never made it out of the second round despite playing on consistently good teams, and his own team made the ECF without him when he got hurt. That's not a coincidence.

I'm specifically talking about offense. I fully admit LeBron/MJ are better overall players. But you aren't giving me any actual examples of offense. Let's talk about those playoff series though. Jokic lost to the Western Conference Champions without a guy you value far greater than I do. The rest of that lineup was MPJ (15 ppg 38% shooting), Gordon (9 ppg 41% shooting) Will Barton (left Denver, barely played in Was, career basically done), Monte Morris, Austin Rivers (doesn't even play in Min), and Campazzo (doesn't even play in Dal). Jokic averaged 26-13-6, and was a down series for him. 2018 LeBron James, arguably the best version of playoff LeBron we ever saw, was taken to seven games in the 1st round by the Indiana Pacers because he had an awful cast, and that was with home court advantage against a team that was swept the year before and after that in round 1.

The next year Denver is playing the literal NBA champions in round 1 with a 2006 Kobe level cast, still Jokic averages 31-13-6 on elite efficiency and took as many games from them as Dallas did in the WCF with a better point differential. So not only did he likely have the worst playoff rotation of any team that made the postseason back to back years, he also happened to run into the teams that represented the West both those years.

If you want a trump card I'll give you a trump card. The most efficient play in NBA history since tracking started is a Nikola Jokic post up. That includes LeBron's entire prime. Nikola Jokic just had the most efficient 20 ppg season in NBA history this regular season. In the last three postseasons he's averaged 30 ppg on elite efficiency. So elite that only 2017 LeBron exceeds 2022 and 2023 Jokic in both volume and efficiency. He's top 10 ever in playoff ppg AND TS%. I'd probably still lean LeBron but I'd have to weigh how I value his added athleticism vs. Jokic's post play/shooting/efficiency. Either way, it's close.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Mox

[jrry32]

18 minutes ago, Mox said:

I'm specifically talking about offense. I fully admit LeBron/MJ are better overall players. But you aren't giving me any actual examples of offense. Let's talk about those playoff series though. Jokic lost to the Western Conference Champions without a guy you value far greater than I do. The rest of that lineup was MPJ (15 ppg 38% shooting), Gordon (9 ppg 41% shooting) Will Barton (left Denver, barely played in Was, career basically done), Monte Morris, Austin Rivers (doesn't even play in Min), and Campazzo (doesn't even play in Dal). Jokic averaged 26-13-6, and was a down series for him. 2018 LeBron James, arguably the best version of playoff LeBron we ever saw, was taken to seven games in the 1st round by the Indiana Pacers because he had an awful cast, and that was with home court advantage against a team that was swept the year before and after that in round 1.

You forgot the part where 2018 LeBron led them to a W in that series, swept the Raptors, and then beat the Celtics, to make the NBA Finals.

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The next year Denver is playing the literal NBA champions in round 1 with a 2006 Kobe level cast, still Jokic averages 31-13-6 on elite efficiency and took as many games from them as Dallas did in the WCF with a better point differential. So not only did he likely have the worst playoff rotation of any team that made the postseason back to back years, he also happened to run into the teams that represented the West both those years.

22 year old LeBron took the Cavs to the NBA Finals with a terrible team around him.

Quote

If you want a trump card I'll give you a trump card. The most efficient play in NBA history since tracking started is a Nikola Jokic post up. That includes LeBron's entire prime. Nikola Jokic just had the most efficient 20 ppg season in NBA history this regular season. In the last three postseasons he's averaged 30 ppg on elite efficiency. So elite that only 2017 LeBron exceeds 2022 and 2023 Jokic in both volume and efficiency. I'd probably still lean LeBron but I'd have to weigh how I value his added athleticism vs. Jokic's post play/shooting/efficiency. Either way, it's close.

That's not even true.

https://fadeawayworld.net/the-15-most-efficient-half-court-plays-in-the-last-15-seasons-stephen-curry-james-harden-and-nikola-jokic-lead-the-list

Edited June 16, 2023 by jrry32

[Mox]

5 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

You forgot the part where 2018 LeBron led them to a W in that series, swept the Raptors, and then beat the Celtics, to make the NBA Finals.

22 year old LeBron took the Cavs to the NBA Finals with a terrible team around him.

That's not even true.

https://fadeawayworld.net/the-15-most-efficient-half-court-plays-in-the-last-15-seasons-stephen-curry-james-harden-and-nikola-jokic-lead-the-list

I'm saying even at his best he was pushed to 7 by a bad team in round 1 because his cast sucked. Supporting cast matters, and LeBron's edge defensively is likely the difference in that series. 

Yeah, we saw what happened when he played the champs that year. He was swept, played awful, and gave the Spurs their least competitive series of the postseason. Imagine if he had to face them in round 1 like Jokic did instead of a .500 Wizards team. The Cavs were a 2 seed in the East and would've been the 6 seed in the West, which would have matched them up with...the San Antonio Spurs. Sometimes luck breaks your way and sometimes it doesn't. Though that's not really a fair comparison for LeBron because that was a pre-prime version of him. Though again, that's an overall play thing, not only on offense. LeBron's defensive versatility is a big reason why he's the GOAT floor raiser.

In totality, not single season. The guy is basically unprecedented with his volume and efficiency alone, and when you factor in playmaking you get insane offensive impact. Look at the percentiles for offense with Jokic on the court the last three years. 99, 99, 100. They are right up there with any LeBron season with last year eclipsing every LeBron year. 

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/1883/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

[jrry32]

8 minutes ago, Mox said:

I'm saying even at his best he was pushed to 7 by a bad team in round 1 because his cast sucked. Supporting cast matters, and LeBron's edge defensively is likely the difference in that series. 

And I'm saying that they still won the series, won the next two, and made it to the finals. That's massively different from getting knocked out in the first round in five games and swept in the second round.

Quote

 

In totality, not single season. The guy is basically unprecedented with his volume and efficiency alone, and when you factor in playmaking you get insane offensive impact. Look at the percentiles for offense with Jokic on the court the last three years. 99, 99, 100. They are right up there with any LeBron season with last year eclipsing every LeBron year. 

https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/1883/onoff#tab-team_efficiency

 

I can pull stats that favor LeBron. End of the day, I watched peak LeBron and peak Jokic. LeBron made the bigger impact on offense. Feel free to come back to me in five years and throw it in my face if Jokic is in the GOAT conversation.

[Mox]

8 hours ago, jrry32 said:

And I'm saying that they still won the series, won the next two, and made it to the finals. That's massively different from getting knocked out in the first round in five games and swept in the second round.

I can pull stats that favor LeBron. End of the day, I watched peak LeBron and peak Jokic. LeBron made the bigger impact on offense. Feel free to come back to me in five years and throw it in my face if Jokic is in the GOAT conversation.

Even though that's a fundamentally different argument than the one I'm making that does seem for the best. It's not that productive to continue 'the LeBron is better at carrying teams therefore he's better offensively and I'm sticking to that regardless of what you say' route. But it was only a month ago you thought he wasn't better than Kobe so we've made progress.

[Trey Lance]

11 hours ago, Mox said:

You have zero consistency in your argument. Weak sauce.

Has nothing to do with downplaying Murray. I actually like him. Think he has a chance to keep growing. 

He's not as good as you guys think. You're falling for 2016 Kyrie all over again.

So Lowry over Kyrie?

 

Edit: lol actually yes

Edited June 16, 2023 by Trey Lance

[Mox]

3 minutes ago, Trey Lance said:

So Lowry over Kyrie? 

Without question

EDIT: Prime Lowry, obviously not current.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Mox

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, Mox said:

Even though that's a fundamentally different argument than the one I'm making that does seem for the best. It's not that productive to continue 'the LeBron is better at carrying teams therefore he's better offensively and I'm sticking to that regardless of what you say' route. But it was only a month ago you thought he wasn't better than Kobe so we've made progress.

To be clear, I don't think it's clear that Jokic is a better all around player than peak Kobe. But we're limited to speaking about offense.

On stats, I could toss out that Jokic's best season in terms of Offensive Win Shares would only be LeBron's fifth best season. I could point out that Jokic's best season in Offensive Box Plus/Minus would only be LeBron's third best season. I could then point to the playoffs where Jokic's playoff performance this year in terms of offensive win shares would only be tied with two LeBron seasons for LeBron's third best year and that LeBron had two clearly better years in the playoffs in terms of OBPM. I could point out that Jokic's best season in terms of PPG (27.1) wouldn't even rank in LeBron's top 10 PPG seasons.

But bluntly, I don't believe those stats determine who the better player is any more than the stats you posted do. I would simply be cherry picking the stats that support my argument. I think peak LeBron was better from watching him. The stats are like a drunk using a light post: for support, not illumination.