Quick Xs and Os question

[Hunter2_1]

A common problem to solve: let’s say you’re a DC. Your defense is being gashed on the ground, so you put in one or two of your bigger “thumper” linebackers. But the offense adjusts and now starts taking advantage of the relative lack of speed on your D, starts slicing you in the air or on screens. It seems they’re always one step ahead. 
 

what would you be looking to do to address this?

or is this one of those million dollar question scenarios, and the offense has simply achieved its goal.

 

Also, does your team have an example where either this has happened to them or they’ve solved this issue?

Edited March 19, 2023 by Hunter2_1

[BetterCallSaul]

Offense always has the edge. I think you must play with 3 LBs if you’re getting gashed on the ground though. Play zone and keep things in front of you. If it’s screens that are killing you, stunt your DL. That has destroyed opposing screen games for our defense we have been running for 10+ years now at our HS. It ruins the blocking scheme and gives the DL time to see it developing.

It also really depends on the formation as far as how you can align. If you’re seeing the I-Formation and getting power blocking schemed, gotta play 3 LBs. If you’re getting gashed with inside/outside zone against spread, gotta pinch the crap out of the DL and spill everything to the LBs.

Those are our answers for the run. We don’t ever take our 3 LBs off the field. We have a bunch of slow small kids, but have been elite against the run for the past 6-7 years by just fitting to base run plays with precision.

We do a walkthrough period where we let the offense block us for 1 rep, then we walk through our keys, then we go full speed. It makes our players see the blocking scheme, see who is going to try and block them, and then lets them execute the techniques to beat the blocks. It’s been our savior. Watching the NFL, you can tell these morons have no idea how these plays develop. Truthfully. I watch linebackers whose guards pull get stuck on down blockers 90% of the time. They’re playing as if they’re anticipating cutback for some reason, when the backside S and LB are responsible for that. NFL front 7 players simply don’t care about stopping the run from a principled standpoint. I feel like there are 2 teams that fit to the run game well every week/season. Pittsburgh & New England. Everyone else wants to play cover 4 with 7 dudes that run a 4.45. They could care less if you know what’s going on or if you can tackle. Or if you make reads and react. I really don’t understand.

I am not exaggerating this at all—our kids in HS tackle better, read better, and are smarter than most of these NFL players. Obviously our kids would get toasted by NFL athletes 500-0 in a game, but our fundamentals are 10x sharper.

 

Idk if it’s because NFL coaches are asking these guys to do too much or if these players are just doing their own things or if they are just really that dumb. But it’s a huge problem across the NFL. I am guessing it’s 80% on coaching and 20% on the players from what I see. Simple alignments can solve you getting gashed in the run game. I watched the Browns play with 1-2 linebackers most of the season while also playing with two wide 9’a. We got decimated between the tackles and Joe Woods, public enemy #1, never adjusted. Never thought, “oh, the TE is slamming down on our linebackers with impunity because of the wide 9. Maybe put the DE inside the TE.” Or, oh we’re getting killed on cutbacks because our two LBs are getting over the top of their down blocks (good) but there is no cutback player aside from the S, who is getting run off in coverage. Maybe add a 3rd LB.”

I think coaches suck, for the most part. They expect techniques to be formulated when these guys come into the league when really, the NFL athletes are the ones that get away without using it until this level.

 

 

Done ranting. Done with my book. 

[Hunter2_1]

32 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Offense always has the edge. I think you must play with 3 LBs if you’re getting gashed on the ground though. Play zone and keep things in front of you. If it’s screens that are killing you, stunt your DL. That has destroyed opposing screen games for our defense we have been running for 10+ years now at our HS. It ruins the blocking scheme and gives the DL time to see it developing.

It also really depends on the formation as far as how you can align. If you’re seeing the I-Formation and getting power blocking schemed, gotta play 3 LBs. If you’re getting gashed with inside/outside zone against spread, gotta pinch the crap out of the DL and spill everything to the LBs.

Those are our answers for the run. We don’t ever take our 3 LBs off the field. We have a bunch of slow small kids, but have been elite against the run for the past 6-7 years by just fitting to base run plays with precision.

We do a walkthrough period where we let the offense block us for 1 rep, then we walk through our keys, then we go full speed. It makes our players see the blocking scheme, see who is going to try and block them, and then lets them execute the techniques to beat the blocks. It’s been our savior. Watching the NFL, you can tell these morons have no idea how these plays develop. Truthfully. I watch linebackers whose guards pull get stuck on down blockers 90% of the time. They’re playing as if they’re anticipating cutback for some reason, when the backside S and LB are responsible for that. NFL front 7 players simply don’t care about stopping the run from a principled standpoint. I feel like there are 2 teams that fit to the run game well every week/season. Pittsburgh & New England. Everyone else wants to play cover 4 with 7 dudes that run a 4.45. They could care less if you know what’s going on or if you can tackle. Or if you make reads and react. I really don’t understand.

I am not exaggerating this at all—our kids in HS tackle better, read better, and are smarter than most of these NFL players. Obviously our kids would get toasted by NFL athletes 500-0 in a game, but our fundamentals are 10x sharper.

 

Idk if it’s because NFL coaches are asking these guys to do too much or if these players are just doing their own things or if they are just really that dumb. But it’s a huge problem across the NFL. I am guessing it’s 80% on coaching and 20% on the players from what I see. Simple alignments can solve you getting gashed in the run game. I watched the Browns play with 1-2 linebackers most of the season while also playing with two wide 9’a. We got decimated between the tackles and Joe Woods, public enemy #1, never adjusted. Never thought, “oh, the TE is slamming down on our linebackers with impunity because of the wide 9. Maybe put the DE inside the TE.” Or, oh we’re getting killed on cutbacks because our two LBs are getting over the top of their down blocks (good) but there is no cutback player aside from the S, who is getting run off in coverage. Maybe add a 3rd LB.”

I think coaches suck, for the most part. They expect techniques to be formulated when these guys come into the league when really, the NFL athletes are the ones that get away without using it until this level.

 

 

Done ranting. Done with my book. 

Thanks BCS! Great response

with those linebackers against the pulling OLs, are they suppose to just get outside no matter what? are they trying to force the cutback?
 

 

[BetterCallSaul]

3 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Thanks BCS! Great response

with those linebackers against the pulling OLs, are they suppose to just get outside no matter what? are they trying to force the cutback?

As soon as they see pullers, their eyes go down the LOS to the EMLOS (end man on line of scrimmage) so they can ID the incoming down block. If there isn’t one, they track the finside hip of RB. If there is a down block coming (90% of the time), they scrape at all costs, no matter how far of an angle it is. Because sometimes we get cracked from a slot WR on those concepts. They gotta try to work over top of that too, even though it’s really hard. You can only really play this way in 2-high though, because you need a back side alley filler to replace the lb flying over top. Teams that play cover 3, in my experience, are worse at stopping the run because their OLBs can’t aggressively work over the top or scrape as hard because no S can replace them.

For the longest time, our thought was Cover 3 obviously makes more sense to stop the run—you’re gaining a body inside the box. Wrong. We got demolished in cover 3. The second we switched to cover 2 as our base, we started killing teams that tried to run pretty much anything at us. We have shut down the Wing-T, true wide open spread, I-formation, double tights, unbalanced…pretty much every type of offense you can think of by being basic AF and just understanding our assignments and reads. If a team was really good at false pulling, it’d hurt us. Luckily no1 really does that in HS. We build robots for the scheme and it works to perfection. We don’t blitz because it changes our fits. We don’t convert to 1-high because it changes our fits. We want the same guys doing the same robotic things over and over. You can’t teach the way we do and be multiple…having dudes like Isaiah Simmons playing 4-5 different positions and playing 3-3, 3-4, nickel, dime, 4-3…teams are getting too cute in the NFL IMO. It doesn’t let them get really good at anything.

 

another book written for ya. 

[Chiefer]

8 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

A common problem to solve: let’s say you’re a DC. Your defense is being gashed on the ground, so you put in one or two of your bigger “thumper” linebackers. But the offense adjusts and now starts taking advantage of the relative lack of speed on your D, starts slicing you in the air or on screens. It seems they’re always one step ahead. 
 

what would you be looking to do to address this?

or is this one of those million dollar question scenarios, and the offense has simply achieved its goal.

 

Also, does your team have an example where either this has happened to them or they’ve solved this issue?

Sometimes you gotta change the scheme up, for instance Spagz had some run defense concerns and rookie corners, so he switched the Chiefs to a Cover-2 Man style defense. Very simple, and gives your rookies confidence on the outside with two safeties back there.

Now this requires some two gapping at front, so you need DL that can do that.  Spagz also blitzed 25% of the time, so it’s not a completely bland Cover-2 Man, you still have to vary up the scheme a little. Your corners and safeties have to be good tacklers and physical. I’m assuming your LBs are good at attacking the run as well in this scenario it’s why you put them out there. 

Spagz also uses 3-safety sets a healthy amount in this set up, taking out a LB to gain back some better pass coverage ability. 
 

 

 

 

[Chiefer]

5 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said:

As soon as they see pullers, their eyes go down the LOS to the EMLOS (end man on line of scrimmage) so they can ID the incoming down block. If there isn’t one, they track the finside hip of RB. If there is a down block coming (90% of the time), they scrape at all costs, no matter how far of an angle it is. Because sometimes we get cracked from a slot WR on those concepts. They gotta try to work over top of that too, even though it’s really hard. You can only really play this way in 2-high though, because you need a back side alley filler to replace the lb flying over top. Teams that play cover 3, in my experience, are worse at stopping the run because their OLBs can’t aggressively work over the top or scrape as hard because no S can replace them.

For the longest time, our thought was Cover 3 obviously makes more sense to stop the run—you’re gaining a body inside the box. Wrong. We got demolished in cover 3. The second we switched to cover 2 as our base, we started killing teams that tried to run pretty much anything at us. We have shut down the Wing-T, true wide open spread, I-formation, double tights, unbalanced…pretty much every type of offense you can think of by being basic AF and just understanding our assignments and reads. If a team was really good at false pulling, it’d hurt us. Luckily no1 really does that in HS. We build robots for the scheme and it works to perfection. We don’t blitz because it changes our fits. We don’t convert to 1-high because it changes our fits. We want the same guys doing the same robotic things over and over. You can’t teach the way we do and be multiple…having dudes like Isaiah Simmons playing 4-5 different positions and playing 3-3, 3-4, nickel, dime, 4-3…teams are getting too cute in the NFL IMO. It doesn’t let them get really good at anything.

 

another book written for ya. 

Keep it simple stupid, sometimes that’s all a team needs. Spagz always ran a complicated scheme that required heady vets. Problem was he relied on these vets like Dan Sorensen to a fault, who’d get horribly beat because his body didn’t match the requirements of the scheme. he Really simplified things this last year and the defense did pretty well for the most part.

Cover two really helped with the run defense issues we’d had in the past. Once you’ve got the run game figured out the rest should come together to create winning football, as long as your offense comes through anyways 

Reminds me of the Lombardi Packers, what was their offensive playbook, 15 plays total? But they ran them to perfection

 

[adamq]

7 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said:

I think coaches suck, for the most part.

The NFL has a big problem with it being an exclusive club where it's a big network of buddies hiring each other and their family

[Hunter2_1]

2 hours ago, Chiefer said:

Keep it simple stupid, sometimes that’s all a team needs. Spagz always ran a complicated scheme that required heady vets. Problem was he relied on these vets like Dan Sorensen to a fault, who’d get horribly beat because his body didn’t match the requirements of the scheme. he Really simplified things this last year and the defense did pretty well for the most part.

Cover two really helped with the run defense issues we’d had in the past. Once you’ve got the run game figured out the rest should come together to create winning football, as long as your offense comes through anyways 

Reminds me of the Lombardi Packers, what was their offensive playbook, 15 plays total? But they ran them to perfection

 

This seems to be the consensus so far. Do the basics and stop the run first.