Hard Knocks: Offseason

[CWood21]

On 7/11/2024 at 10:53 PM, Soko said:

I haven’t been watching it but the clips that I’ve seen of Joe Schoen haven’t been flattering at all.

Honestly, I don't see any issue.  If anything, he's like that kid with ADHD that can't sit still.

[Soko]

7 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Honestly, I don't see any issue.  If anything, he's like that kid with ADHD that can't sit still.

I don’t really know standard practice as far as GMing goes…but the “promise you’ll call us back? Or are you not even gonna give us a chance?” thing seemed…weird. The receiver stuff seemed weird. Downplaying the possibility of losing Saquon, especially to Philly, and then losing Saquon to Philly, as ownership is sitting there saying “I’ll lose sleep if we lose Saquon to Philly”, was weird. You have one clip justifying Saquon’s walk as “we’re not paying Daniel Jones $40M to hand it off”, and then another clip where he’s trying to trade up for a QB.

Maybe all or most GMs are this way, who knows. But as someone who doesn’t see/hear other inner workings all that much, this doesn’t paint Schoen positively, IMO. And this is the good/normal stuff that the organization thought was fine, imagine what they said no to and cut out.

[CWood21]

12 minutes ago, Soko said:

I don’t really know standard practice as far as GMing goes…but the “promise you’ll call us back? Or are you not even gonna give us a chance?” thing seemed…weird. The receiver stuff seemed weird. Downplaying the possibility of losing Saquon, especially to Philly, and then losing Saquon to Philly, as ownership is sitting there saying “I’ll lose sleep if we lose Saquon to Philly”, was weird. You have one clip justifying Saquon’s walk as “we’re not paying Daniel Jones $40M to hand it off”, and then another clip where he’s trying to trade up for a QB.

Maybe all or most GMs are this way, who knows. But as someone who doesn’t see/hear other inner workings all that much, this doesn’t paint Schoen positively, IMO. And this is the good/normal stuff that the organization thought was fine, imagine what they said no to and cut out.

I feel like that's standard for GMs to ask for the right to match offers or make trade offers.  Schoen (and the rest of the Giants' FO) clearly felt that Saquon's value was limited because the RB market was flush with talent.  And the last thing you want to do is end up bidding against yourself and cause yourself to pay more than what the market dictates.  Other than Josh Jacobs, he got the most amount of money for RBs.  He got the highest APY and the most amount of GTD% for all RBs that got at least $8M guaranteed.  Philadelphia signed Barkley to a 3 year, $37.75M deal with $11.625M signing bonus and nearly 69% guaranteed.  The Giants signed Devin Singletary to a 3 year, $16.5M deal with a $3.75M signing bonus and 58% guaranteed.  The Giants got Singletary at less than half of what Barkley got, and they can get out of his deal after Y1 if goes poorly.  The Eagles can only save money if they J1 him next year.  I was a fan of Barkley coming out, but 2 out of the last 4 seasons doesn't inspire confidence in his ability to be a game changer.  IF Singletary can reproduce what he did in Buffalo under Daboll, that's much better value than Barkley.  This is clearly a franchise that doesn't value RBs very highly.  And of course ownership probably isn't happy their star RB leaves to a divisional rival.  They're more concerned with losing $$$ than they are about whether or not a deal is a good contract.

And GMs posture all the time.  Daniel Jones at $40M can't be a game manager.  You give contracts like Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield get if you want your QB to be a game manager.  But at $40M, you want him to be able to win you games.  If you're paying Jones $40M/year and Barkley $13M/year, you have to make concessions elsewhere.  Add on that they spent quite a bit of money on the OL and on Brian Burns, there's only so much money to be spent.  Are the Giants better off with Saquon Barkley ($12.6M/year) or Singletary and Eluemunor (a combined $12.5M/year)?  I'd say the latter given their issues on the OL last year.

This looks like status quo for any GM.  You've got posturing both ways.  You don't want to be too upfront about what you're trying to do. 

[Soko]

8 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I feel like that's standard for GMs to ask for the right to match offers or make trade offers.  Schoen (and the rest of the Giants' FO) clearly felt that Saquon's value was limited because the RB market was flush with talent.  And the last thing you want to do is end up bidding against yourself and cause yourself to pay more than what the market dictates.  Other than Josh Jacobs, he got the most amount of money for RBs.  He got the highest APY and the most amount of GTD% for all RBs that got at least $8M guaranteed.  Philadelphia signed Barkley to a 3 year, $37.75M deal with $11.625M signing bonus and nearly 69% guaranteed.  The Giants signed Devin Singletary to a 3 year, $16.5M deal with a $3.75M signing bonus and 58% guaranteed.  The Giants got Singletary at less than half of what Barkley got, and they can get out of his deal after Y1 if goes poorly.  The Eagles can only save money if they J1 him next year.  I was a fan of Barkley coming out, but 2 out of the last 4 seasons doesn't inspire confidence in his ability to be a game changer.  IF Singletary can reproduce what he did in Buffalo under Daboll, that's much better value than Barkley.  This is clearly a franchise that doesn't value RBs very highly.  And of course ownership probably isn't happy their star RB leaves to a divisional rival.  They're more concerned with losing $$$ than they are about whether or not a deal is a good contract.

And GMs posture all the time.  Daniel Jones at $40M can't be a game manager.  You give contracts like Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield get if you want your QB to be a game manager.  But at $40M, you want him to be able to win you games.  If you're paying Jones $40M/year and Barkley $13M/year, you have to make concessions elsewhere.  Add on that they spent quite a bit of money on the OL and on Brian Burns, there's only so much money to be spent.  Are the Giants better off with Saquon Barkley ($12.6M/year) or Singletary and Eluemunor (a combined $12.5M/year)?  I'd say the latter given their issues on the OL last year.

This looks like status quo for any GM.  You've got posturing both ways.  You don't want to be too upfront about what you're trying to do. 

I’m not against the practice of having guys circle back after testing the market. Nor am I against not breaking the bank for Saquon Barkley. Asking him to give him his word multiple times, and phrasing it as “or are you just gonna give up on us?” is different, though. It was just strange. 

Who was he posturing to though? They were alone in his office. It was just staff and cameras in there. 

Like I said, don’t really have much of an issue with the final decisions (such as letting Barkley walk, although to answer your question, I’d much rather have Barkley over a JAG OT and Singletary), just all his attempts at explaining things make him look incompetent.

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, Soko said:

I’m not against the practice of having guys circle back after testing the market. Nor am I against not breaking the bank for Saquon Barkley. Asking him to give him his word multiple times, and phrasing it as “or are you just gonna give up on us?” is different, though. It was just strange. 

Who was he posturing to though? They were alone in his office. It was just staff and cameras in there. 

Like I said, don’t really have much of an issue with the final decisions (such as letting Barkley walk, although to answer your question, I’d much rather have Barkley over a JAG OT and Singletary), just all his attempts at explaining things make him look incompetent.

I mean, based on the comments made by Barkley it seemed like he had already made up his mind on leaving the Giants unless they were going to hit the market value he wanted.  When Schoen asked Barkley where he wanted to be, that comment that "he already knew he wanted to be in NY" seemed very disingenuous.  Clearly Schoen didn't think that Barkley wanted to be in New York despite Barkley's comments saying otherwise.  And I think that Schoen felt like he was giving Barkley his respect by not giving the offer that he felt the market dictated, and instead of franchise tagging him or "low-balling" him with an offer he let Barkley find the market.  My guess is the Giants' evaluation of Barkley was closer to what Swift got from the Bears.

[ramssuperbowl99]

28 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, based on the comments made by Barkley it seemed like he had already made up his mind on leaving the Giants unless they were going to hit the market value he wanted.  When Schoen asked Barkley where he wanted to be, that comment that "he already knew he wanted to be in NY" seemed very disingenuous.  Clearly Schoen didn't think that Barkley wanted to be in New York despite Barkley's comments saying otherwise.  And I think that Schoen felt like he was giving Barkley his respect by not giving the offer that he felt the market dictated, and instead of franchise tagging him or "low-balling" him with an offer he let Barkley find the market.  My guess is the Giants' evaluation of Barkley was closer to what Swift got from the Bears.

The entire thing was tone deaf and borderline emotionally stunted.

Watch this interview with Barkley about it and see how you feel - he's very clearly bothered not as much by the way numbers or business side but the approach.

 

Saquon says he was "a little fed up" with having to go get offers, and honestly I don't blame him. Put this in context, he has been asking for security forever, they've had literally a year of negotiations that lead into a franchise tag, and after all his boss says pretty overtly, "okay our goal is to pay you as little as possible, and I'm feeling kinda lazy today, so you go tell me what that amount is".

 

Imagine you're in a relationship, you want to get married, they don't. This goes on for years, you finally put your foot down and say it's now or never, and they say, "fine you go find prices for venues and dates and do all the planning, and we're going with the absolute cheapest one". And then the GM has the balls to be like "but I thought we were close?" when Saqon leaves? The lack of awareness is pretty astounding really. If your buddy told you that story and ended with "and she broke up with me, what gives?", what would you say?

Edited July 25 by ramssuperbowl99

[Soko]

28 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I mean, based on the comments made by Barkley it seemed like he had already made up his mind on leaving the Giants unless they were going to hit the market value he wanted.  When Schoen asked Barkley where he wanted to be, that comment that "he already knew he wanted to be in NY" seemed very disingenuous.  Clearly Schoen didn't think that Barkley wanted to be in New York despite Barkley's comments saying otherwise.  And I think that Schoen felt like he was giving Barkley his respect by not giving the offer that he felt the market dictated, and instead of franchise tagging him or "low-balling" him with an offer he let Barkley find the market.  My guess is the Giants' evaluation of Barkley was closer to what Swift got from the Bears.

That doesn’t really address the weirdness of that conversation, though. Framing it in a way where Barkley either promises to circle back (which he did, according to him), or he’s the one not giving NY a chance, is manipulative. You could tell he wasn’t happy with that conversation, and he said as much. According to Saquon, that’s when he knew he wasn’t returning to NY, and he found that to be disrespectful. Again, just the dynamics of the conversation, not the end result, were strange. 

The Giants offered him an extremely similar deal to what the Eagles landed him for. Eagles got him for 3 years, $37.75M, and $26M GTD. NY offered, according to Schoen, a 3 year, $37.5M with $25M GTD. We don’t know the exact structure, but almost identical deals. So nah, the Giants’ evaluation was pretty similar to what Philly’s was, but they mishandled it so badly that Barkley wanted to leave.

That’s probably why ownership was so mad that he left for a divisional rival.

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The entire thing was tone deaf and borderline emotionally stunted.

Watch this interview with Barkley about it and see how you feel - he's very clearly bothered not as much by the way numbers or business side but the approach.

 

Saquon says he was "a little fed up" with having to go get offers, and honestly I don't blame him. Put this in context, he has been asking for security forever, they've had literally a year of negotiations that lead into a franchise tag, and after all his boss says pretty overtly, "okay our goal is to pay you as little as possible, and I'm feeling kinda lazy today, so you go tell me what that amount is".

 

Imagine you're in a relationship, you want to get married, they don't. This goes on for years, you finally put your foot down and say it's now or never, and they say, "fine you go find prices for venues and dates and do all the planning, and we're going with the absolute cheapest one". And then the GM has the balls to be like "but I thought we were close?" when Saqon leaves? The lack of awareness if pretty astounding really. If your buddy told you that story and ended with "and she broke up with me, what gives?", what would you say?

Schoen is in a situation where he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.  If his offer comes up substantially lower than what Saquon and his agent feels he is, he runs the risk of alienating him and there might not be a chance to match that offer.  Let's say Saquon and his agent think he's worth something along the lines of what Josh Jacobs got (4 years, $48M) but more guaranteed and the Eagles felt he was closer to D'Andre Swift (3 year, $24M) got.  If that offer pisses Saquon off, there's no guarantee that he's going to give the GIants' the chance to match.  At this point, they're relying on the world of Saquon (and by extension his agent) that he's going to give the Giants' a chance to match that offer.  If Saquon isn't willing to do that, that alters the equation.  And as of then, they were still on good terms.  Saquon was upset that the Giants' evaluation didn't match his evaluation, and when he was told to go prove it he got upset by it.  Understandable, but not like it's indefensible on behalf of the Giants.  At some point, you hit the most you're willing to spend and you shouldn't deviate from that.  Because if you deviate from that, you have to go cutting costs somewhere else.

The offer the Eagles gave was obviously too rich for the Giants.  The Giants could have easily drug Saquon through another franchise tag, and they didn't.  Because they felt they were "doing right" by Saquon.  That was their choice.  And in return, they asked for for Saquon to bring back a better offer than what they had on the table at the time. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 minute ago, CWood21 said:

Schoen is in a situation where he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.  If his offer comes up substantially lower than what Saquon and his agent feels he is, he runs the risk of alienating him and there might not be a chance to match that offer.  Let's say Saquon and his agent think he's worth something along the lines of what Josh Jacobs got (4 years, $48M) but more guaranteed and the Eagles felt he was closer to D'Andre Swift (3 year, $24M) got.

You are still talking numbers, which is utterly missing the point. I stopped reading here.

 

Saquon wanted to feel wanted. Listen to his interview. When he sums up the experience, the first two words he said were "I feel". This was not a math problem, this was an emotional decision.

A good negotiator is not a robot that pretends feelings don't exist. They recognize what the other party wants, and they find a way to provide it on terms that make sense for everyone. Schoen was a bad negotiator here because he never once recognized that Saquon wanted to feel wanted, even at the end when he says "you aren't even going to give us a chance?"

He had a chance. He had a thousand chances. He never once took them, because he was too tone deaf to realize it.

[CWood21]

14 minutes ago, Soko said:

That doesn’t really address the weirdness of that conversation, though. Framing it in a way where Barkley either promises to circle back (which he did, according to him), or he’s the one not giving NY a chance, is manipulative. You could tell he wasn’t happy with that conversation, and he said as much. According to Saquon, that’s when he knew he wasn’t returning to NY, and he found that to be disrespectful. Again, just the dynamics of the conversation, not the end result, were strange. 

The Giants offered him an extremely similar deal to what the Eagles landed him for. Eagles got him for 3 years, $37.75M, and $26M GTD. NY offered, according to Schoen, a 3 year, $37.5M with $25M GTD. We don’t know the exact structure, but almost identical deals. So nah, the Giants’ evaluation was pretty similar to what Philly’s was, but they mishandled it so badly that Barkley wanted to leave.

That’s probably why ownership was so mad that he left for a divisional rival.

IF Barkley really wanted to be in NY and IF the Giants' final offer was close to what the Eagles gave him then one of two things likely happened (IMO).  Either Barkley really didn't want to remain in NY like he said he did or he was "hurt" because the initial offer wasn't going to be anywhere near what he thought his market value was.  They had been negotiation since they applied the franchise tag last year.  Barkley knew what the Giants' evaluation was roughly.

[CWood21]

Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said:

You are still talking numbers, which is utterly missing the point. I stopped reading here.

 

Saquon wanted to feel wanted. Listen to his interview. When he sums up the experience, the first two words he said were "I feel". This was not a math problem, this was an emotional decision.

A good negotiator is not a robot that pretends feelings don't exist. They recognize what the other party wants, and they find a way to provide it on terms that make sense for everyone. Schoen was a bad negotiator here because he never once recognized that Saquon wanted to feel wanted, even at the end when he says "you aren't even going to give us a chance?"

He had a chance. He had a thousand chances. He never once took them, because he was too tone deaf to realize it.

It's all apart of the equation.  I'm using number to try and add detail.  Is throwing a "below-market" deal at Saquon showing him love?  He was upset because the Giants tried to show him "respect" by not making an offer he might find insulting.  And given how much animosity was shown when he got tagged last year, giving Saquon the chance to test the market was the olive branch Schoen was offering.  They could have gone down the road of tagging or throwing an "insulting" offer at Saquon and risk alienating him that way.  LIS, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Soko]

3 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

IF Barkley really wanted to be in NY and IF the Giants' final offer was close to what the Eagles gave him then one of two things likely happened (IMO).  Either Barkley really didn't want to remain in NY like he said he did or he was "hurt" because the initial offer wasn't going to be anywhere near what he thought his market value was.  They had been negotiation since they applied the franchise tag last year.  Barkley knew what the Giants' evaluation was roughly.

Okay…what does that have to do with Schoen trying to put Barkley into a corner by promising to come back? What does that have to do with Schoen justifying Daniel Jones in one breath, and making multiple calls to trade up for a QB in another? What does that have to do with embarrassing himself in front of ownership by saying no one’s going to outbid NY for Saquon? 

[ramssuperbowl99]

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

It's all apart of the equation.  I'm using number to try and add detail.  Is throwing a "below-market" deal at Saquon showing him love? 

"I feel like the only way the Giants wanted me was if I was able to go show my worth to someone and if I was able to go prove that" - Saquon Barkley

 

The player could not be more crystal clear that the answer to that question is yes. Also note the first 2 words, "I feel".

2 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

He was upset because the Giants tried to show him "respect" by not making an offer he might find insulting.  And given how much animosity was shown when he got tagged last year, giving Saquon the chance to test the market was the olive branch Schoen was offering.  They could have gone down the road of tagging or throwing an "insulting" offer at Saquon and risk alienating him that way.  LIS, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

The fact that you have the word respect in quotes here means to me you are not grappling what each party was telling the other emotionally. If you're not doing that, I don't really have anything else to say.

[CWood21]

Just now, Soko said:

Okay…what does that have to do with Schoen trying to put Barkley into a corner by promising to come back? What does that have to do with Schoen justifying Daniel Jones in one breath, and making multiple calls to trade up for a QB in another? What does that have to do with embarrassing himself in front of ownership by saying no one’s going to outbid NY for Saquon? 

Put Barkley in a corner?  Schoen offered up his olive branch by not tagging Barkley.  All he asked in return was that if he got an offer that exceeded what the Giants' offer would be that he'd be given the opportunity to match.  That seems like a rather fair deal all things considered.  That's not Schoen demanding assurances that IF the Giants matched another offer that Barkley would return.  The only FO personnel in the room that felt they "needed" to retain Barkley was John Mara (IIRC).  And I'd argue that his motivation was less to do with on-the-field production and more to do with the fans.

You have to as a GM do your due diligence.  Even if you're convinced that a healthy Daniel Jones is Patrick Mahomes 2.0, you're still going to do the legwork of QBs when you're drafting that high.  Doesn't mean you're actually gonna go through with it.  The Commanders weren't going to trade down, and certainly weren't going to trade the pick to the Giants.  And given Wolf's comments, it would have taken an astronomical pick package for the Patriots to move off the pick.  And QBs went 1-2-3, so the Giants effectively had 2 options with their pick.  Keep Daniel Jones at $40M/year and pick the best offensive weapon (MHJ, Nabers, Odunze, or Bowers) to give Daniel Jones every opportunity reaffirm their commitment to him.  Or take a QB (JJ McCarthy or Michael Penix) at 6, and let him sit behind Jones for a year before Jones becomes a cap casualty a year from now.  The Giants chose the former.  You can absolutely want a player back badly, but you're not going to overpay for that player.

[CWood21]

9 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

"I feel like the only way the Giants wanted me was if I was able to go show my worth to someone and if I was able to go prove that" - Saquon Barkley

 

The player could not be more crystal clear that the answer to that question is yes. Also note the first 2 words, "I feel".

If you wanted to argue that you feel Schoen didn't know what makes Saquon Barkley tick more, than I wouldn't have an issue with your argument.  But at this point, it's you choosing to 100% believe one side of the discussion and disregarding the other side.  It's like when 2 children start fighting and you're trying to figure out what happened, odds are the truth is somewhere in the middle.  Barkley was upset that a concrete offer didn't come in.  Schoen thought he was doing right by Barkley by not bringing in an offer well below what Barkley wanted.  Seems right to me.

11 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The fact that you have the word respect in quotes here means to me you are not grappling what each party was telling the other emotionally. If you're not doing that, I don't really have anything else to say.

I put them in quotations because respect means different things to different people.  Schoen thought he was giving respect to Barkley by not "low-balling" him and letting the market dictate his value.  Barkley thought he was disrespected because he never got a concrete offer.  LIS, if you want to knock Schoen for not knowing the guy that is a fair take.