Where does Kyle Pitts rank among recent draft busts?

[El Ramster]

2 hours ago, jrry32 said:

IMO, Kyle Pitts is like Greg Olsen. Once he finds a coach who will use him correctly, he's going to do big things. That might be Atlanta this year as the system comes together and Kirk regains his form. We'll see. He's a big-time athlete and has exceptional hands. Does he have his flaws? Sure. But if you scheme around them, he can be highly effective.

Olsen had the same numbers thru out his career though. Olsen had 3 good years in Carolina that made him seem like this amazing TE. Maybe he reaches that thru out his career? But he was the guy he was in Chicago every other year besides those 3 magical ones. 

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

Olsen had the same numbers thru out his career though. Olsen had 3 good years in Carolina that made him seem like this amazing TE. Maybe he reaches that thru out his career? But he was the guy he was in Chicago every other year besides those 3 magical ones. 

Ramster, Olsen had a five-year run in Carolina where he averaged 77 receptions for 969 yards before injuries and age put an end to his career. 

[El Ramster]

43 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Ramster, Olsen had a five-year run in Carolina where he averaged 77 receptions for 969 yards before injuries and age put an end to his career. 

My love you take out those 3 years. In 6 years he avg. 546 yards. You’re going to say injuries, yes he had foot problems. The best ability is availability. 
 

He avg in 4 years in Chicago. 495.. Tada. Hugely boosted by a nutty 3 year run. 

[Tugboat]

I don't really know why teams still draft TEs high.  Some of them are still very okay, but it's one of those weird positions where so many of them come from outside the first round.  It's weird, in that it's still a fairly "premium position" in that having a really good TE is an enormous difference maker in an offense...but the league seems particularly daft when it comes to identifying exactly who those great TEs are going to be.  They're better at identifying guys who have the receiving tools to be "decent", but that is in no way worth the sort of pick that Pitts went with.

 

I got sort of bamboozled by just how outstanding and "complete" a prospect Hockensen looked to be coming out, and had him way higher than any other recent TE i can think of.  And maybe that's not completely without merit, as he is very good.  But i just hold TE in general as a similar position to DB...where a guy has to be exceptionally special for me to consider them a Top-10 Draft Pick.  Yet...when you don't have enough solid DBs or a solid TE1 and some depth...it's a glaring hole in most schemes.

 

I think part of the problem with TEs is that, Pitts is a prime example of where "raw athleticism" and "receiving success" ends up valued over not just the obvious blocking aspects, but even as an NFL receiving TE...it often comes down far more to their actual feel for space, sure-handedness, and savvy in running routes through traffic.

I think the Goedert big play vs Saints today was a prime example of that.  He's a guy i was really high on in the draft, and went well outside the 1st because he didn't necessarily have standout athletic tools.  But he's got plenty to get the job done, and he understands the position better than most.  So he's really good.  That's the kind of guy to focus on...over the Kyle Pitts type, "athletic freak" that requires a crazy high pick investment.

[jrry32]

6 hours ago, El Ramster said:

My love you take out those 3 years. In 6 years he avg. 546 yards. You’re going to say injuries, yes he had foot problems. The best ability is availability. 
 

He avg in 4 years in Chicago. 495.. Tada. Hugely boosted by a nutty 3 year run. 

It wasn't a three-year run. It was a five-year run. And that's the entire point. That was his prime. Age and injuries took their toll after that run. Before it was his career in Chicago and his first year in Carolina (where he split time with Jeremy Shockey). Carolina figured out how to use him and maximize his value. He rewarded them by becoming one of the most productive TEs in the NFL.

[El Ramster]

9 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

It wasn't a three-year run. It was a five-year run. And that's the entire point. That was his prime. Age and injuries took their toll after that run. Before it was his career in Chicago and his first year in Carolina (where he split time with Jeremy Shockey). Carolina figured out how to use him and maximize his value. He rewarded them by becoming one of the most productive TEs in the NFL.

Numbers never lie. I’m sorry, but numbers never lie.. I wish I could say you’re right. But look at the numbers. 

[jrry32]

3 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I don't really know why teams still draft TEs high.  Some of them are still very okay, but it's one of those weird positions where so many of them come from outside the first round.  It's weird, in that it's still a fairly "premium position" in that having a really good TE is an enormous difference maker in an offense...but the league seems particularly daft when it comes to identifying exactly who those great TEs are going to be.  They're better at identifying guys who have the receiving tools to be "decent", but that is in no way worth the sort of pick that Pitts went with.

 

I got sort of bamboozled by just how outstanding and "complete" a prospect Hockensen looked to be coming out, and had him way higher than any other recent TE i can think of.  And maybe that's not completely without merit, as he is very good.  But i just hold TE in general as a similar position to DB...where a guy has to be exceptionally special for me to consider them a Top-10 Draft Pick.  Yet...when you don't have enough solid DBs or a solid TE1 and some depth...it's a glaring hole in most schemes.

 

I think part of the problem with TEs is that, Pitts is a prime example of where "raw athleticism" and "receiving success" ends up valued over not just the obvious blocking aspects, but even as an NFL receiving TE...it often comes down far more to their actual feel for space, sure-handedness, and savvy in running routes through traffic.

I think the Goedert big play vs Saints today was a prime example of that.  He's a guy i was really high on in the draft, and went well outside the 1st because he didn't necessarily have standout athletic tools.  But he's got plenty to get the job done, and he understands the position better than most.  So he's really good.  That's the kind of guy to focus on...over the Kyle Pitts type, "athletic freak" that requires a crazy high pick investment.

Yeah, I get this view, especially when you're not willing to scheme around that TE's strengths. Then again, if a guy needs to be schemed around, maybe you shouldn't take him in the top 5. Still, if you do, you shouldn't just treat him like any other TE.

1 minute ago, El Ramster said:

Numbers never lie. I’m sorry, but numbers never lie.. I wish I could say you’re right. But look at the numbers. 

Numbers do lie when you remove his three best seasons. L-O-L. 

[El Ramster]

3 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Yeah, I get this view, especially when you're not willing to scheme around that TE's strengths. Then again, if a guy needs to be schemed around, maybe you shouldn't take him in the top 5. Still, if you do, you shouldn't just treat him like any other TE.

Numbers do lie when you remove his three best seasons. L-O-L. 

Well I guess. Just saying that he was always that same guy he was in Chicago as he was in Car. Minus 3 nutty seasons. If you want a TE to have great years in a 13 year career I guess. 
 

 

Also, people covet athletic TEs because you want the next Jimmy Graham, Gronk, Gates, Gonzo and Sharpe. You pay premium for athletic freaks. It’s like why guys like Kupp get overlooked by guys much athletic like juju, Ross, Mike Williams and Cory Davis. You want the bigger faster freak.. It’s been that way since 4eva.. Vernon Gholston was that guy! The first ever draft prospect I thought would be the best. 
 

This dudes eyebrows had muscles. 💪 

[jrry32]

1 minute ago, El Ramster said:

Well I guess. Just saying that he was always that same guy he was in Chicago as he was in Car. Minus 3 nutty seasons. If you want a TE to have great years in a 13 year career I guess. 

Minus five seasons when he was one of the top TEs in the NFL, which contradicts your point. That's why you keep adding on the seasons at the end of his career when he was injured and not the same player. You can keep doing mental gymnastics, but the point remains. He went to Carolina, they figured out how to use him, and he blossomed into one of the NFL's best TEs, after being a pretty average TE in Chicago. 

[El Ramster]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Minus five seasons when he was one of the top TEs in the NFL, which contradicts your point. That's why you keep adding on the seasons at the end of his career when he was injured and not the same player. You can keep doing mental gymnastics, but the point remains. He went to Carolina, they figured out how to use him, and he blossomed into one of the NFL's best TEs, after being a pretty average TE in Chicago. 

But I showed you he was the same

in car for 6 years. If the man did that for all 9 years in Car I would be right there with you. He did it for just 3 out of his long as career. I get what you mean. This is like me arguing with that jags fan about Fiske the whole game day thread. I was like he was explosive and fast. He said not in pads. Yet, I said that’s not true because he looked explosive in pads in FSU. Then he went on for 10’pages telling me how much he sucked and he was over drafted. To what I said! I’m not arguing that. He does suck and deff isn’t worth that extra second we paid. I was just stating how he was wrong, specially with him testing as the best DT ever. He kept telling me, well who did FSU play! He was a 3rd/4th rounder at best. It was nutty dude. I said that’s not my argument and continued telling me how much he sucked. It was scary tbh. Felt like I was In bar fight with a schizophrenic. 

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

But I showed you he was the same

in car for 6 years. If the man did that for all 9 years in Car I would be right there with you. He did it for just 3 out of his long as career. I get what you mean. This is like me arguing with that jags fan about Fiske the whole game day thread. I was like he was explosive and fast. He said not in pads. Yet, I said that’s not true because he looked explosive in pads in FSU. Then he went on for 10’pages telling me how much he sucked and he was over drafted. To what I said! I’m not arguing that. He does suck and deff isn’t worth that extra second we paid. I was just stating how he was wrong, specially with him testing as the best DT ever. He kept telling me, well who did FSU play! He was a 3rd/4th rounder at best. It was nutty dude. I said that’s not my argument and continued telling me how much he sucked. It was scary tbh. Felt like I was In bar fight with a schizophrenic. 

He did it for five years, not three, until his age-32 season. /conversation

[El Ramster]

Just now, jrry32 said:

He did it for five years, not three, until his age-32 season. /conversation

Reported. You’re telling me he was going to magically stay healthy. For 4 years Kupp avg

101 catches, 1,223 yards, and 8 TDS a game. 
14.3 games played when healthy. 
 

But he didn’t though. Because he had a monster year in between those 4. 
 

You avg those numbers for a 17 game season. 
121 catches, 1,460 and 10 tds. 
 

Stats always look better. Always. It’s like putting lip stick on a pig. I like the whole pie it tells the whole story. Sadly, them boys couldn’t stay healthy.. I’m just arguing to argue. Missed you Jrry. You use to be second biggest ram homer. Seems like a huge part of you died. I remember when it was your dream to work for the rams. ♥️ hope life’s been good to you and not cruel. Did you ever end up buying that nice fancy car?

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, El Ramster said:

Reported. You’re telling me he was going to magically stay healthy. For 4 years Kupp avg

101 catches, 1,223 yards, and 8 TDS a game. 
14.3 games played when healthy. 
 

But he didn’t though. Because he had a monster year in between those 4. 
 

You avg those numbers for a 17 game season. 
121 catches, 1,460 and 10 tds. 
 

Stats always look better. Always. It’s like putting lip stick on a pig. I like the whole pie it tells the whole story. Sadly, them boys couldn’t stay healthy.. I’m just arguing to argue. Missed you Jrry. You use to be second biggest ram homer. Seems like a huge part of you died. I remember when it was your dream to work for the rams. ♥️ hope life’s been good to you and not cruel. Did you ever end up buying that nice fancy car?

I went a very different direction with my work. But it keeps me busy, and I like it. Life is good. Yes, I have a fancy car, that I almost never drive lol. It's gorgeous, but it sits in the garage. Hope you're doing well too, Ramster.

[El Ramster]

Just now, jrry32 said:

I went a very different direction with my work. But it keeps me busy, and I like it. Life is good. Yes, I have a fancy car, that I almost never drive lol. It's gorgeous, but it sits in the garage. Hope you're doing well too, Ramster.

Let me drive it… Inv to a golf game.. I’ll be free around Dec. maybe come watch a Rams game… Life was better before. Life is very bumpy rn. 

[Tugboat]

5 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Yeah, I get this view, especially when you're not willing to scheme around that TE's strengths. Then again, if a guy needs to be schemed around, maybe you shouldn't take him in the top 5. Still, if you do, you shouldn't just treat him like any other TE.

 

Yeah.  At the end of the day, there are things you can do to get just a little bit more out of some of these types...but at the same time, to me at least, any sort of Top-5 or Top-10 pick even, should be someone that is highly scheme diverse and has a robust skillset that can make an impact in a variety of roles and situations.  You always want to be putting impact players in positions to succeed, but those sort of tops picks should not be someone you have to particularly "scheme around".  Which is where the superior athleticism starts to come into the picture - giving them the physical tools to do a variety of different things well.  Though ultimately, with TEs specifically, it seems like it's more about "thresholds" athletically.  Beyond that, there are just so many other things that matter more.