Mind Character

Yeah, he likely would've went higher had he gone to a bigger program. However, in today's technological and high speed information world, it's safe to say that close to if not all the NFL scouting departments knew of Drew Forbes and film (even Sports Illustrated knew him as prospect x). So, he still went in later rounds because his ability/athleticism wasn't exceptional (although the competition level definitely hurt him). Late round OLineman hit rate is not as high as RB, LB, and Safety hit rate. Hopefully he does hit. We need it desperately.

A win isn't a win and a loss isn't a loss when it comes to assessing the quality of the coaching and play. The win against the Jets wasn't of the same variety as the win against the Ravens. The lost to the Ravens last year in our final game wasn't the same as the Broncos loss this year against Brandon Allen; the loss against the Titans wasn't of the same variety as the loss against the Seahawks. To me, wins and loss record matters but the record only will not be sufficient to tell me if we should keep Freddie or not or whether we should make changes elsewhere on the team player or coach-wise. What matters more is the quality of performance and how we look in the games. The following 8 games left: Buffalo (One of the worst QBs in the league), Bengals (Worst team in the league)x2, Steelersx2 (One of the worst teams in the league), Dolphins (One of the worst teams in the league), Cardinals (rookie QB; talent deficient), Ravens Some Combination of Things I have to see out of a Freddie led Offense/Team or "He gone": 1.) No more attempts at 4-D Chess when the simple call is better like on the critical 3rd and 3 in the redzone running Dontrell Hilliard up the middle with Nick Chubb on the sideline in a "they know we're going to run Chubb so I'm going to surprise them and wont." Then, on 4th and 1 running a QB sneak with a QB that is never going to be good at QB sneaks with the "They'll think I'll pass to Hilliard so I'll run a QB sneak with a favorable box" logic. 2.) Get the Plays in Sooner and Play-calling with pace variation (no huddle and quick clock plays): Baker gets the play-calls so late and has little time often to diagnose and read the defense and/or make the necessary at the line adjustments and calls. Freddie is the opposite of Sean McVay and Andy Reid types that believe you have to get the QB especially young QBs to the line with the play as fast as possible so they can read out and manipulate the defense. 3.) Quick Rhythm Play design that makes sense with Baker's best skill-set: Designing quick rhythm and easy completions. Moving OBJ, Callaway, and others in motion to give Baker the chance to see the defense declare it's intentions and give him pre-snap answers to the post-snap test. The entirety of the Eagles, Chiefs, and Patriots offenses are about designing Easy completions to give the offense some momentum building and rhythm. It's crazy that we don't give Baker easy completions to get his rhythm going and flowing. Flow can be established even with deep shots as it let's the QB let it go and energizes the offense and threatens the defense.Flow is real. Natural ability and talent take over when the flow is going. 4.) Key Situational, Timeouts, and Challenge decisions being handled better by Freddie. 5.) More Play Action & Threaten the Defense with Deep Shots Occasionally so they at least have something to worry about: Basic explosive offensive football requires the illusion or threat of danger in order to keep the defense on its heels. Baker is exceptional at play-action as it opens up passing lanes by creating defensive hesitation and taking attention away from mid-route change of direction routes. We need to get away from the empty backfield shotgun play designs. 6.) Primary read play-calling that gives our best offensive players (OBJ, Nick Chubb, etc) an opportunity to decide whether we win or lose. 7.) Dominating wins and performances against the Bengals and Dolphins. 8.) I need to see better discipline and reduction in penalties with the HC wishes translating into players' actions. 9.) Go 2 out of 3 against Steelers/Buffalo; Beat the Steelers twice or beat Buffalo and split with the Steelers: With Kareem Hunt back, there's no reason why we can't outscore a Mason Rudolph and Josh Allen led offenses. Watching them play multiple times this year, they are 2 of the handful of worst QBs in the league. Every Rudolph throw is 5 yards or less; he's a statue that freezes up under pressure, and is inaccurate over the middle. Injuries have also decimated their offensive skill positions. A good and at times really good but not great defense carries them. Buffalo has less talent on both sides of the ball and a barely better QB b/c of his ability to run. They are better coached; however, they haven't played anyone this year. We should really win them all but quality performances with 2 out 3 wins is a need. 10.) Beat the Cardinals with quality performance. 11.) With Kareem Hunt back, give Baker easy read delayed RB out the backfield RB route completions a la Drew Brees and Alvin Kamara in order to get favorable 2nd down distance.

This was a need. What he showed last year through injury was team building block type stuff. He and Bitonio. Replace everyone else. We need a guy like Drew Forbes to hit so bad, but a 6th round lineman doing so is so rare.

The disappearance of pace is one of the oddest things this year. Of course, it's difficult to vary pace with pre-snap penalties, but that doesn't explain away why pace has completely disappeared as a tool to develop offensive success. So much about this season is just puzzling. My only explanation is that we're trying to play 8-D Chess with the whole "They're going to expect us to call the game with pace but so I'm going to slow it down; they're expecting us to run it with NIck Chubb on 3rd and 3 so I'm not I'm going to put in Dontrell Hilliard to fool them with a run." This season just blows man. It really really does.

So you're saying that we should design the offense as if our 2nd year QB is actually a 2nd year QB? Fascinating... It's crazy that we don't give Baker easy completions to get his rhythm going and flowing. Flow can be established even with deep shots as it let's the QB let it go and energizes the offense and threatens the defense. The entirety of the Eagles, Chiefs, and Patriots offenses are about designing Easy completions to give the offense some momentum building and rhythm. Flow is real. Natural ability and talent take over when the flow is going. Our offense has not pace nor rhythm. I remember a time when we would go no huddle just to vary pace. That's dead as is so much other positive stuff we used to do.

Jarvis Landry was wide open if Baker is on time on our final offensive play. As much as it would've been great to go to OBJ one on one, it was an easy completion to Jarvis if Baker isn't late with bringing his eyes off the RB and doesn't hitch shuffle twice before throwing it to Jarvis. The troubling part is that the entire defense declared Man including the safeties. So, if he was reading it correctly he would know that OBJ would've been 1 on 1 and Callaway would be clearing out for Jarvis to have 1 on 1 underneath. No disguises nothing crazy. Set Hut, ball snapped, Baker's eyes go to the RB at the Mesh route with OBJ. The eyes stay on the RB for a long time as the 1st read then come back to Jarvis late. If he throws it right away, it's good and Jarvis gets more yards. His eyes are slow and his feet are slow and the ball comes out late. End of game. The really troubling thing to me is the fact that when the coverage is simple, when the pockets are clean, and the moment is big for some reason Baker isn't seeing it well or processing it well. He's in a funk. Something is going on. He never had eyes this bad even when he wasn't reading things well. I'm starting to really worry that Ryan Linley or some other thing is ruining Baker. We need to help him break out of this so things down become longterm habits.

There's not a lot separating them but there is some separation.. Darnold going down with mono early and the terrible OLine with Gase kind of have led this to be a throw-away season for him. He played 5 games; 1 of which he was playing through mono. So, in 4 games he had one special performance that had a bad redzone INT against the Cowboys, but the other 3 games have been bad for a wide variety of reasons with Sam's Patriots game being the worse game either Allen, Baker, or Darnold has played. His best game against the Cowboys was the best game played by any of the 3 this year in terms of big time throws, anticipation, pocket movement avoiding the blitz, etc. Baker's game against the Ravens was 2nd. Throw out the box-score stats... Josh Allen is terrible almost every game. He makes plays with his legs but he misses worse than anyone and his team often wins in spite of him. However, Allen's made more winning plays consistently than either of Baker and Darnold this year. So, it's close, but ultimately I do think it goes Josh Allen then Baker then Darnold. I guess one can get into what Allen and Darnold have to work with in terms of WRs versus Baker and comparing the Jets OLine versus others or Darnold dealing with mono and Allen and Baker being mostly healthy. If because of the Cowboys game where Darnold was dialed in someone wants to put him ahead I guess, but Baker's played better in spots.

Currently, Prescott below Josh Allen is insane. Dak gets no love; his rushing and passing production is consistently very good each year. Currently, Wentz below Mayfield is hard to see when Wentz had an MVP type season before going down with injury, another good season, and one now while battling through poor OLine/WR play. I could see it making some sense you mean that's how you'll see it down the line.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. I think the point I was really trying to make was about the context of opponent when it comes to wins vs losses and not necessarily the sample size. I'm all for giving Freddie until the end of the season. However, it's just my opinion that the 2nd half of the season doesn't really provide Freddie with the opportunity to really prove how diagnostic his influence on winning can be due to the opponent's we face. Executing at a high level, play smart football, winning and/or competing to the end against really good teams matters as does dominating and executing at a high level against bad teams. We need to go out and dominate the Dolphins and Bengals for those wins to allow us to take something from them.

None first year... Marty Schott ... point was about expectations.. tons of coaches have gotten fired at 7-9 or 8-8; the list would be too long. Oddly enough the only HC that got fired at 8-8 that I can recall was none other than Hue Jackson the GOAT.

A win isn't a win and a loss isn't a loss when it comes to assessing the quality of the coaching and play. The win against the Jets wasn't of the same variety as the win against the Ravens. The loss against the Titans wasn't of the same variety as the loss against the Seahawks. An 8 win season beating the Dolphins, Titans, Arizona, Bengalsx2, Buffalo, Jets, Broncos would be completely different than an 8 win season against the Rams, Ravens, Patriots, Seahawks, Bengalsx2, Titans. That's why season record matters but it's not the end all be all relative to how the team has performed in particular games.

Indeed, what is there to take really from beating the worst team and 2nd worse team in the league (Bengals, Bengals, Dolphins)? And what is there really to take from beating the Arizona Cardinals who have only beat the worst (Bengals), tied for second worse (Falcons) and tied tied for 3rd worse record at 2-7 (Giants)? That leaves Buffalo, Steelersx2, and the Ravens. Steelers have a truly terrible QB. I've watched all their games. Their defense is good. Buffalo has a decent defense but hasn't played anyone and their offense with Allen is terrible often. The Ravens are a good team. I guess if we beat the Ravens, Buffalo and the Steelers once it might say something about our team and Freddie.

The following 8 games left: Buffalo, Cardinals, Bengals, Bengals, Steelers, Steelers, Dolphins, Ravens If 8-8 is good enough to stay what record isn't in your mind? 7-9? 6-10 or 5-11? Where's the cut off? Beating the worst and 2nd to worse teams in the league will tell me nothing personally. So, that would be 3 wins right there to get us to 5-11. That leaves Buffalo, Cardinals, Steelers, Steelers, Ravens. Buffalo hasn't played anyone and has a bad QB. Cardinals have a roster with mostly no talent and a rookie QB. Steelers have one of the worst QBs in the league and a good defense. Ravens are an ascending team. In my mind, we need to beat Buffalo, Cardinals, and win 2 out of the 3 Steelers and Ravens games. That means 9-7 is the benchmark in my mind as 8-8 doesn't really tell us anything based on the opponents we play. There's coaches that get fired after 9, 10, or 11 wins because they don't meet expectations. Here we've lost so much that it seems insane to fire an 8-8 coach; however it might not be that crazy given the context of opponents.

Monken in Tampa Bay designed an electric offense over the span of weeks that relied on explosive deep shots to keep the defense on their heels with play-action pass and quick rhythm play designs mixed in as the core of the offense. We take no deep shots to keep the defense honest and we have no quick rhythm game that isolates 1 on 1 match-ups. I say he at least deserves a shot at play-calling.

You really won't give up the "Monken's the new piece therefore it's Monken's fault we're struggling" hypothesis. Monken DOESN"T call the plays and he doesn't lead the offensive meetings. I get the mental logic of saying A & B were good together last year. This year we added C to A & B and we're struggling. So, it must be C's fault. But that completely disregards the fact that HC-OCs struggle after transitioning to HC-OC; it disregards the change in the QB Coach; it disregards the fact that the play-caller has the control over what mostly happens on the field. Todd Haley and Freddie Kitchens called plays out of the same playbook. Freddie made it clear last year that the team didn't have time to install new plays. We saw what a difference the play-caller made. Monken is known for explosive play-calling, deep-shots, play-action, and a quick rhythm game mixed in. He's commented that we need to go to Odell more and take advantage of explosive opportunities. I can get not thinking Monken will be better, but attributing blame for our offensive struggles primarily to Monken just doesn't make sense to me.

Those were where I think it'll be at the end of next year Currently, it's: 1a.) Patrick Mahomes, 1b.) Deshaun Watson, 3a.) Carson Wentz, 3b.) Dak Prescott, 5.) Jacoby Brissett, 6.) Lamar Jackson, 7.) Baker Mayfield, 8.) Josh Allen 9.) Sam Darnold

Very true.

Really good points on what exactly we liked. I really have no clue where we go from here. This season's been a total mess from top to bottom.

I don't know man. Wentz has one of the higher pressure rates of any QB in the NFL along with one of the highest WR drop rates. His run game isn't reliable either. Wentz and Dak don't get the respect their games deserve. Even if one loves Baker, I think it's difficult to say that Wentz and Dak aren't above him. There is daylight after Mahomes and Watson. It's crazy to think how truly transcendent both have been and how many dismissed them both as elite NFL prospects. I mean they both went 10th and 12th overall which is wild.

Many people were thrilled with the Freddie hire. Others were worried about the sample size and whether Freddie the OC could make for a successful HC/OC. Looking back at last year, many brought up the point then that our success in the 2nd half of the season may or may not be diagnostic of future success because it was mostly against 4 really bad defenses (The Falcons Defense--bad then but look how terrible they are now, The Bengals twice, and the Broncos who literally had 5 DBs injured including there backups backups going down in the game). We went 5-3 over that stretch of the 2nd half of the season. That was enough to make Freddie the Head Coach of the team in the eyes of many. Were we illusioned then? With 8 games left, will going 5-3 against the likes of the Bengalsx2, Dolphins, Cardinals, Buffalo, Steelersx2, and Ravens be enough to tell us we're going in the right direction currently and Freddie's the guy? Will we be illusioned again?

The thing that's interesting to me is 8 games as an OC last year going 5-3 with wins/success against mostly 4 really bad defenses (The Falcons Defense, The Bengals twice, and the Broncos who literally had 5 DBs injured including there backups backups going down in the game) was enough for people to "know" that Freddie was the right hire as a Head Coach However 8 games this year are not. It's likely that success and another 5-3 or so record against even worse defenses will improperly restore people's belief in Freddie.

By the end of next year I think it'll be: 1a.) Patrick Mahomes, 1b.) Deshaun Watson, 3a.) Carson Wentz, 3b.) Dak Prescott, 5.) Lamar Jackson, 6a.) Baker Mayfield, 6b.) Sam Darnold 6c.) Jacoby Brissett, 9.) Josh Allen

Re-Rank the QBs based on where you think they'll be by the end of next year. The QB we have as well as the one's we could've had. QBs like Trubisky and Goff were selected before we could select. QBs like Mahomes qualify b/c we could've passed on Myles if we chose to. ------- 2018 Baker Mayfield Sam Darnold Josh Allen Lamar Jackson --- 2017 Patrick Mahomes Deshaun Watson --- 2016 Carson Wentz Jacoby Brissett Dak Prescott

Truth. It also tells me that Monken maybe should get a chance at play-calling before the season is up because he's the only person that has pushed back against Freddie and Baker's points suggesting that "we can't force it to OBJ" as Monken explicitly has said repeatedly in public statements "sometimes OBJ is doubled but often he's not and we have to take advantage of those potential explosive plays no matter what." Explosive deep shots mixed in with the quick rhythm game along with a lot of play action was Monken's calling card as an OC. That's what got me excited about his hiring. If we really are going to get rid of Freddie, the rest of the offensive coaches are likely to go with him out the door so before that eventuality I'd at least like to see what Monken does with the play-calling. The problem for Freddie would then be that he doesn't have the track record for the players to respect him as the head guy after he's been demoted for essentially not doing his OC job well. Will be interesting to see where stuff goes.

You're right. It's a truly strange season. Last year though we had so many designed plays that involved QB movement that would essentially give Baker half-field reads so he could be decisive. It's very strange that we have moved away from those. We also keep running the same over route OBJ/Callaway with Jarvis underneath on a drag route 1 to 2 read plays. So, even when Baker goes to progression 1, the defense through film study knows that ultimately know where his eyes are coming back to and where he's going with the ball. It's surprising that we never take any deep shots to keep the defense honest and increase box spacing. We never threaten the defenses with anything so they all just sit on underneath routes and make it hard for Baker to sift through the noise.