Week 1 GDT: Jacksonville Jaguars (0-0) @ Houston Texans (0-0)

[.Buzz]

4 minutes ago, iPwn said:

It will. Every team whiffed on him. But the team that would deserve the most criticism is the team that spent a premium draft pick on a player at the same position at a position that generally doesn’t require premium resources be spent. This doubly so when said team is in need of starters at premium positions and didn’t find those in the draft either, while passing on players at those positions who could be the answer with their #4 selection.

For the most part, I’m just poking the bear now with the Fournette vs Hunt discussion. I hope Fournette’s violent run style does wonders for our offense over the next 8 years. I hope the other players they selected pan out. But it’s going to be somewhat irritating if we’re watching the Chiefs make the playoffs year after year with Mahomes under center, handing off to Hunt and we’re stuck with a Ryan Fitzpatrick handing off to Fournette seeing 9 man stacked boxes. Just saying.

So who would you have rather had taken at 4?

Also, again, this just shows that the Cowboys taking a RB top 5 last year with Jordan Howard falling all the way to 150 was equally stupid. 

You can seriously do this every year. There are always going to be guys that scouts missed on that fell to the mid/late rds that play the same position as plays that went in the 1st round and are either close in production/skill in the NFL as the player that went in the 1st round. This happens EVERY year, and this happens to even the best scouts/teams as far as evaluating.

I get what you're doing, guess I'm just frustrated with all the discussion being negative and nothing else pretty much as far as we go. Makes it hard to want to post when the only topic you can get legit discussion without pessimism/hate for the team is the 2018 draft thread that has nothing to do with the team but the players. I get we're in a bad spot, but there's plenty of teams that are in bad spots/have been in bad spots and aren't in the darkness this place is in.

[.Buzz]

I mean, heck, we're legit throwing rocks (jokingly, but still, this is where we're at) at our drafting and we haven't even played a reg. season game/only one NFL game has been played. Not sure it gets much worse than that.

[.Buzz]

Anyways, back to the injury report I really hope Gip can go. He's actually looked pretty solid so far this preseason. I really want to see the whole secondary back there all at once. 

[pwny]

2 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

So who would you have rather had taken at 4?

Also, again, this just shows that the Cowboys taking a RB top 5 last year with Jordan Howard falling all the way to 150 was equally stupid. 

Who I would have preferred doesn’t much matter. I probably would have taken the trade from the Panthers though. What I’m saying is that they spent a premium resource on a position that doesn’t much matter with pressing needs at premium positions. There were other needs that typically require high draft resources.

In a vacuum, it’s a bad move to spend a premium resource on a non-premium position. You mitigate that by having the foresight to plan forward and find a 5 sack/season DT in Maliek Collins in the third, a capable backup plan to your QB in the 4th, and spending every draft pick from the 2nd-5th on premium positions where you have or might have a need. It’s a lot easier to justify taking the RB at 4 when you grab the QB you want in the 4th. It’s also justifiable if the premium position players don’t work out, so we’ll see.

[.Buzz]

Just now, iPwn said:

Who I would have preferred doesn’t much matter. I probably would have taken the trade from the Panthers though. What I’m saying is that they spent a premium resource on a position that doesn’t much matter with pressing needs at premium positions. There were other needs that typically require high draft resources.

In a vacuum, it’s a bad move to spend a premium resource on a non-premium position. You mitigate that by having the foresight to plan forward and find a 5 sack/season DT in Maliek Collins in the third, a capable backup plan to your QB in the 4th, and spending every draft pick from the 2nd-5th on premium positions where you have or might have a need. It’s a lot easier to justify taking the RB at 4 when you grab the QB you want in the 4th. It’s also justifiable if the premium position players don’t work out, so we’ll see.

If we're being honest here, you don't pick a QB in the 4th thinking he's your future/he's helping much at all anytime in the next few years. You pick a QB in the 4th hoping he can be a great backup and potentially be able to start down the road if things go well/more of a stop gap. Finding a QB that is anything more than that past the 3 round is extremely unlikely. Props to them for finding one, but if anyone thought Dak was going to be even close to what he was last year he would have went way higher.

This past year there was nothing that was worth taking past round 1, maybe 2. Even then, most thought this QB class was awful.

As for the whole non-premium position argument, there wasn't an edge worth it top 5. There wasn't an OL worth it top 5 (also a poor class for OL). There wasn't a QB worth taking top 5. If you think Fournette is an elite prospect and can be a franchise caliber player, you take that elite player. I'm taking a guy who I think will be elite over a guy that may help need wise/play a more important position that is a lesser prospect. We need more elite caliber players like Ramsey. Fournette has the talent to be that type of guy offensively.

[pwny]

Just now, iPwn said:

I mean, heck, we're legit throwing rocks (jokingly, but still, this is where we're at) at our drafting and we haven't even played a reg. season game/only one NFL game has been played. Not sure it gets much worse than that.

Not sure what you’re getting at with this. People like and dislike draft picks all the time. There were plenty of dissenters who complained about Gabbert and Fowler on here even during the sunshine pumper years. Complaints about the Joeckel pick happened a lot even though everyone was still excited about the energy Gus brought. You can go back and people were critical of the Shack Harris picks when they happened too.

But I don’t think anyone is being critical of the the players. I think Fournette will be a fine player. It’s throwing rocks at the strategy this team employs when building the roster at all fronts. And it’s an issue that doesn’t just come from one selection. It’s years of behavior patterns that these decisions still fit within. 

[.Buzz]

7 minutes ago, iPwn said:

Not sure what you’re getting at with this. People like and dislike draft picks all the time. There were plenty of dissenters who complained about Gabbert and Fowler on here even during the sunshine pumper years. Complaints about the Joeckel pick happened a lot even though everyone was still excited about the energy Gus brought. You can go back and people were critical of the Shack Harris picks when they happened too.

But I don’t think anyone is being critical of the the players. I think Fournette will be a fine player. It’s throwing rocks at the strategy this team employs when building the roster at all fronts. And it’s an issue that doesn’t just come from one selection. It’s years of behavior patterns that these decisions still fit within. 

This is the first time we've taken a RB in the 1st round since? The past several years our 1st rd picks have been a CB (premium position, DE (premium position), QB (premium position), LT (premium position), etc.

Again, if there's a guy you think is an elite talent at a premium position and there's a guy that is an elite talent at a non-premium position, sure, go with the premium position player. This last draft there wasn't/we didn't think there was. Therefore, give me the elite talent over a lesser prospect at a premium spot.

We keep saying that its the same decisions being made when the head of football operations and head coach (who I'd imagine has a say) is different than we've had in any of the last few years. The GM is the same from 2013 and forward, but all reports indicate he has no final say/authority in the decisions. Is his voice heard? Of course. But I think you're sorely mistaken if you think Coughlin was doing whatever a GM that has us in this position wants to do. 

If you hate Coughlin/think he's a bad eval of talent, go at that, but not sure why you are comparing what we did this year draft wise to what we did the past few years when there is a different decision makers/voices. Coughlin didn't go after interior OL like he should, not sure what else you can crucify for what he did this past year. Maybe a different face at the backup QB spot or some random flier on a QB in the draft that likely wouldn't have amounted to anything because the class was purtrid?

[pwny]

6 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

If we're being honest here, you don't pick a QB in the 4th thinking he's your future/he's helping much at all anytime in the next few years. You pick a QB in the 4th hoping he can be a great backup and potentially be able to start down the road if things go well/more of a stop gap.

Serious question - has this team gone so long without enacting a plan b that the fan base doesn’t know that other teams don’t put all their eggs in one broken basket?

Tony Romo has just missed nearly the entire season the year prior after injuring then re-injuring his shoulder. He hadn’t played a full season the last three years prior. He had chronic back issues. They knew there was a possibility that Romo wouldn’t finish the season, so they put in a plan b. Did they expect Dak to be that good out of the gate? Likely not. But they put together a contingency plan in case things didn’t work out and they made sure the second plan was there. And when their first plan failed? There was Dak Prescott to save them.

Russell Wilson was the plan B to Matt Flynn. Kirk Cousins was the plan B to RGIII. This is what.... I don’t even want to say smart teams, because it doesn’t take that many smarts to realize that things fail and to attempt to have a backup plan in place... this is what teams that aren’t dumpster fires do. If something might not work, you have a plan in place to go to, that way you increase your odds of something working.

This is what success in everything is predicated on. Forethought and planning. Planning a forethought. Forethought based on planning. Planning based on forethought. It doesn’t matter if it’s football or any other job or major life situation. There’s the cliche that hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard, and that’s exactly what we’re seeing with this team. It doesn’t matter how good of a talent evaluator Dave and his staff are if they continue to not put in the work ahead to supplement the talent. No one is a perfect evaluator. Never are you going to hit on all your maybes. But the teams that find success are the ones who have an extra basket for when theirs breaks.

This argument isn’t about Fournette vs Hunt. The other arguments aren’t about Bortles vs Kaep or Omameh vs Zietler or Myers vs FA Kickers or Poehls vs other options or Brandon Allen vs whatever other 53rd player makes the roster or Linder being worth the biggest C contract in history. They’re all about this concept of big picture management. This isn’t a staff that’s just making bad chess moves. This is a staff that’s trying to play checkers with chess pieces.

This team is going to find good players. I think Fournette will be good. Ramsey, ARob, Telvin, Linder, etc. are good. But the staff just doesn’t think things through and follow through on a goal.

Every single argument, every single complaint, it all comes back to this. And that’s it. And things aren’t going to get better until they address this. They’ll find good players, and they’ll hit on their impact players occasionally. But it’ll never come together unless they create a vision, adhere to it, and plan for when things don’t work out. Until then, things aren’t getting better. We’ll continue to flounder and fail and be the joke of the NFL. And things will stay pessimistic because no matter how much you wear rose tinted glasses, they can’t mask a red flag flapping right in your face. 

[.Buzz]

8 minutes ago, iPwn said:

Serious question - has this team gone so long without enacting a plan b that the fan base doesn’t know that other teams don’t put all their eggs in one broken basket?

Tony Romo has just missed nearly the entire season the year prior after injuring then re-injuring his shoulder. He hadn’t played a full season the last three years prior. He had chronic back issues. They knew there was a possibility that Romo wouldn’t finish the season, so they put in a plan b. Did they expect Dak to be that good out of the gate? Likely not. But they put together a contingency plan in case things didn’t work out and they made sure the second plan was there. And when their first plan failed? There was Dak Prescott to save them.

Russell Wilson was the plan B to Matt Flynn. Kirk Cousins was the plan B to RGIII. This is what.... I don’t even want to say smart teams, because it doesn’t take that many smarts to realize that things fail and to attempt to have a backup plan in place... this is what teams that aren’t dumpster fires do. If something might not work, you have a plan in place to go to, that way you increase your odds of something working.

This is what success in everything is predicated on. Forethought and planning. Planning a forethought. Forethought based on planning. Planning based on forethought. It doesn’t matter if it’s football or any other job or major life situation. There’s the cliche that hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard, and that’s exactly what we’re seeing with this team. It doesn’t matter how good of a talent evaluator Dave and his staff are if they continue to not put in the work ahead to supplement the talent. No one is a perfect evaluator. Never are you going to hit on all your maybes. But the teams that find success are the ones who have an extra basket for when theirs breaks.

This argument isn’t about Fournette vs Hunt. The other guments aren’t about Bortles vs Kaep or Omameh vs Zietler or Myers vs FA Kickers or Poehls vs other options or Brandon Allen vs whatever other 53rd player makes the roster or Linder being worth the biggest C contract in history. They’re all about this concept of big picture management. This isn’t a staff that’s just making bad chess moves. This is a staff that’s trying to play checkers with chess pieces.

This team is going to find good players. I think Fournette will be good. Ramsey, ARob, Telvin, Linder, etc. are good. But the staff just doesn’t think things through and follow through on a goal.

Every single argument, every single complaint, it all comes back to this. And that’s it. And things aren’t going to get better until they address this. They’ll find good players, and they’ll hit on their impact players occasionally. But it’ll never come together unless they create a vision, adhere to it, and plan for when things don’t work out. Until then, things aren’t getting better. We’ll continue to flounder and fail and be the joke of the NFL. And things will stay pessimistic because no matter how much you wear rose tinted glasses, they can’t mask a red flag flapping right in your face. 

We just drafted Brandon Allen who had some intriguing qualities at QB but was a developmental guy last year. Just didn't work out.

You basically saying we have to draft a QB in the 3rd or 4th round or we are stupid or what? I just don't see what you wanted us to do this year as a backup plan. There was nothing if we didn't draft a guy top 5.

Also, you keep skipping over the rest of my post whenever I bring up that this isn't the same decision making as 2013-2016. You keep talking about what past teams/decision makers of this organization did. I know what they did wrong. I'm done looking in the past because things have changed and it's not the same people running things as before so I see no reason why to compare what is currently happening to prior. This season was lost unless Bortles got his **** together as is, so I'm not sure what "backup plan" could have feasibly got this team anywhere besides picking in the low teens instead of top 5 again. You have to have a legit QB situation to go anywhere. We weren't getting that this past offseason. If you are upset we didn't draft CJ Beatherd or some other mid/late rd backup then I guess we just have to agree to disagree. I would have been fine with that but I'm also content with going for position players that have a shot to be key contributers/long term options more so than a stop gap until we draft/sign a guy next year.

[Adrenaline_Flux]

I will try to keep anything that I am looking forward to with this team to myself, I guess.

[pwny]

3 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I just don't see what you wanted us to do this year as a backup plan. There was nothing if we didn't draft a guy top 5.

Like I thought I said pretty clearly through the last three paragraphs of that post, this argument isn’t about one position in one year not being addressed exactly how I wanted it to be addressed.

[.Buzz]

Just now, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I will try to keep anything that I am looking forward to with this team to myself, I guess.

Please don't...lol.

I just don't see anyone wanting to discuss/sign up here with how it is. It's just so depressing. We are about to go into week 1 and you would think we are in mid/late season with an obvious top 3 pick incoming if you looked around in here right now. If we want more people to sign up and the discussion to keep going something has to change. Not like we have to be optimistic/always talk highly of what this franchise's state is in, but besides a select couple people in here it's completely the other way. 

Nothing wrong to be critical/talk down on the team when they do something wrong, but pretty much every move they make/thing that happens in the news on here is welcomed with shade towards them and it's beyond excessive.

[Adrenaline_Flux]

Just now, iPwn said:

5 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

I just don't see what you wanted us to do this year as a backup plan. There was nothing if we didn't draft a guy top 5.

Like I thought I said pretty clearly through the last three paragraphs of that post, this argument isn’t about one position in one year not being addressed exactly how I wanted it to be addressed.

This argument stemmed from my positive comment though, lol. Doesn't matter if it is what your argument is primarily about or not.

[Adrenaline_Flux]

1 minute ago, .Buzz said:

Please don't...lol.

I just don't see anyone wanting to discuss/sign up here with how it is. It's just so depressing. We are about to go into week 1 and you would think we are in mid/late season with an obvious top 3 pick incoming if you looked around in here right now. If we want more people to sign up and the discussion to keep going something has to change. Not like we have to be optimistic/always talk highly of what this franchise's state is in, but besides a select couple people in here it's completely the other way. 

Nothing wrong to be critical/talk down on the team when they do something wrong, but pretty much every move they make/thing that happens in the news on here is welcomed with shade towards them and it's beyond excessive.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[pwny]

2 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

If we want more people to sign up and the discussion to keep going something has to change.

Maybe that something is the direction of the team ?