catcheryea Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said: This feels like another one of those contracts we will have 2 years from now and be trying to trade like Bagley and Wiseman. I don't think its an awful deal for a team who is winning but just seems early to overpay role players for us. troy negotiated against himself for bagley's contract and has to compound that now because he couldn't offer stewart less than bagley even though 11-13 would've been the right amount. so not only are they hoping stewart improves to the point where he's actually worth this much, but they're also banking their entire offensive system on him being able to do things he hasn't shown yet. if none of that stuff ever develops, they're overpaying for a bench big who isn't skilled enough to play the 4 and isn't big or athletic enough to be a full time 5 and also can't play with the guy who could be the starting center for 10 years they could get off of it after the third year, but i'd rather pay him what he's shown he's worth than some fake idealized version of him just because he's the heart and soul or whatever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 34 minutes ago, catcheryea said: they're overpaying for a bench big who isn't skilled enough to play the 4 and isn't big or athletic enough to be a full time 5 and also can't play with the guy who could be the starting center for 10 years This is why I feel like this was a bad signing for Detroit. Detroit had, IMO, one of the worst off-seasons. I loved that they had a lot of flexibility with their cap space/contracts, but then they destroyed that with questionable, to say the least, moves. They seemed to cap their ceiling as a .500 team despite having some really nice pieces. They just needed a lot more & they lack the resources to make a big leap right now & into next year. Cade/Ivey/Duren is a nice trio to build off of. I think Ausar could be decent, but is an unknown. I’m sure they would love to move off of Wiseman/Bagley/Stewart eventually and balance out the roster more, but idk if there’s gonna be a market for any of those dudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcheryea Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 20 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: This is why I feel like this was a bad signing for Detroit. Detroit had, IMO, one of the worst off-seasons. I loved that they had a lot of flexibility with their cap space/contracts, but then they destroyed that with questionable, to say the least, moves. They seemed to cap their ceiling as a .500 team despite having some really nice pieces. They just needed a lot more & they lack the resources to make a big leap right now & into next year. Cade/Ivey/Duren is a nice trio to build off of. I think Ausar could be decent, but is an unknown. I’m sure they would love to move off of Wiseman/Bagley/Stewart eventually and balance out the roster more, but idk if there’s gonna be a market for any of those dudes. lmao how does acquiring two expiring contracts cap their ceiling as a .500 team? and if you mean for next year, a 17 win team starting four guys 22 or younger is capped at a .500 team? that's bad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 55 minutes ago, catcheryea said: lmao how does acquiring two expiring contracts cap their ceiling as a .500 team? and if you mean for next year, a 17 win team starting four guys 22 or younger is capped at a .500 team? that's bad? It's a zero superstar team and they don't really have tradeable assets outside of Ivey/Duren/Thompson/Cunningham. I would be shocked if the Pistons go over .500 this year and I'm not exactly sure why they felt the need to add Joe Harris & re-sign Bogdanovic. Bringing in vets like Monte Morris & Alec Burks seems equally pointless for a team that is rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tso Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 26 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: It's a zero superstar team and they don't really have tradeable assets outside of Ivey/Duren/Thompson/Cunningham. I would be shocked if the Pistons go over .500 this year and I'm not exactly sure why they felt the need to add Joe Harris & re-sign Bogdanovic. Bringing in vets like Monte Morris & Alec Burks seems equally pointless for a team that is rebuilding. All those vets can shoot 3s and be flipped at the deadline for assets if the team record isn't doing well. I'm not expecting us to go .500 either, but I do think we need to make steps to improve and those vets help improve the team along with just natural progression from the young guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcheryea Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 14 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: It's a zero superstar team and they don't really have tradeable assets outside of Ivey/Duren/Thompson/Cunningham. I would be shocked if the Pistons go over .500 this year and I'm not exactly sure why they felt the need to add Joe Harris & re-sign Bogdanovic. Bringing in vets like Monte Morris & Alec Burks seems equally pointless for a team that is rebuilding. that's right, the guys who are 21/19/20/21 and have played 74/67/0/76 career games aren't superstars yet you bring in vets so you can surround your young talent with players who fill in skill gaps they don't currently possess to make their lives eaiser. you were in the pistons thread saying their biggest need was needed shooting. they now have four 38%+ career 3pt shooters to fit around their core young guys and now it doesn't make sense to you? everybody talks about how dysfunctional the rockets have been because eric gordon was the only vet on the team and he didn't give a **** or want to be there and all their young guys were running around doing whatever they wanted because there wasn't any accountability. they now have 7 guys 22 or younger and just paid fvv $140m and dillon brooks $86m. that makes more sense to you? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, BetterCallSaul said: It's a zero superstar team and they don't really have tradeable assets outside of Ivey/Duren/Thompson/Cunningham. I would be shocked if the Pistons go over .500 this year and I'm not exactly sure why they felt the need to add Joe Harris & re-sign Bogdanovic. Bringing in vets like Monte Morris & Alec Burks seems equally pointless for a team that is rebuilding. The only way the Pistons ever are good without a complete reset is if at least 2 of Cade/Ivey/Duren/Asur become stars and one a superstar. Spending on a decent player isn't smart in our current situation. Our team is likely capped at 50% unless those guys take leaps forward which is possible but more likely the next year. Side note, Bogdanovic was already under contract and they have his Bird rights, and Burks was a team option we picked up. Harris was a dumb move for sure but at least is an expiring and can use the money better next year when we have a better idea of where we are as a team. Morris was upgrading our backup PG since Cory Joseph is trash. And as Catcher mentioned, having vets around the young guys is important to teach them how to work and act like professionals while also providing great shooting options for Cade and Ivey to kick to, which will help them improve on the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seminoles1 Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 6 hours ago, JonStark said: Still don't get why people clown him for this. Selecting only Miami is fair I guess (although they were apparently a "fluke" before all these rumors and now are a "superteam"), but he didn't run from the grind for 11 years. You can't just pretend that it's eventually going to lead to a title there and that he needs to keep "toughing it out". Continuing that mentality would most likely never lead him to a championship and that's what his main goal is. It's not like he didn't give it his all there, but it's just not in the cards. It's just being realistic. Then he shouldn't have talked such a big game about it for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 1 hour ago, catcheryea said: that's right, the guys who are 21/19/20/21 and have played 74/67/0/76 career games aren't superstars yet you bring in vets so you can surround your young talent with players who fill in skill gaps they don't currently possess to make their lives eaiser. you were in the pistons thread saying their biggest need was needed shooting. they now have four 38%+ career 3pt shooters to fit around their core young guys and now it doesn't make sense to you? everybody talks about how dysfunctional the rockets have been because eric gordon was the only vet on the team and he didn't give a **** or want to be there and all their young guys were running around doing whatever they wanted because there wasn't any accountability. they now have 7 guys 22 or younger and just paid fvv $140m and dillon brooks $86m. that makes more sense to you? Uhhhh no? I think the Rockets moves were dumber than the Pistons moves. I don’t agree that you need vets amidst a rebuild. Once you have a good roster, sure. The Pistons moves seemed to me like they were trying to win this year…at least, to make the playoffs. Which they still aren’t going to do despite their moves. I just think they’re better off tanking another year with young pups & using their resources next year. They’re stuck between a rebuild and mediocrity, which is the worst place to be in the NBA. Be absolutely dreadful or be a top 10 team. They are neither right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 50 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said: The only way the Pistons ever are good without a complete reset is if at least 2 of Cade/Ivey/Duren/Asur become stars and one a superstar. Spending on a decent player isn't smart in our current situation. Our team is likely capped at 50% unless those guys take leaps forward which is possible but more likely the next year. I agree with this, which is why I was surprised to see them bring in all of these vets who will theoretically steal minutes away from the younger guys. To me, they should be grinding with their young dudes to either hit on some of these dudes or be terrible. They’re not the only NBA team that does things like this. I just feel like they’re best off doing what the Cavs did. Go stupid young & suck until you can move a bunch of pieces for a superstar that fits with your young core. Or draft that superstar if you get lotto luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sllim Pickens Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 34 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: I agree with this, which is why I was surprised to see them bring in all of these vets who will theoretically steal minutes away from the younger guys. To me, they should be grinding with their young dudes to either hit on some of these dudes or be terrible. They’re not the only NBA team that does things like this. I just feel like they’re best off doing what the Cavs did. Go stupid young & suck until you can move a bunch of pieces for a superstar that fits with your young core. Or draft that superstar if you get lotto luck. If we are terrible this year with everyone healthy, its likely a blow it up again situation with Cade and others being awful. The plan is to grind it with young guys but Asur may not be ready to start right away, so keeping Bogey around to start at the 3 makes sense. You dont want to but Thompson out there if he isn't ready. Burks, Harris, and Morris are depth. Every team needs backups and they are solid vet backups with one year remaining on each of their contracts. Morris is an upgrade to our backup PG situation, Burks was hurt a lot last year and will be a solid backup SG, and as much as I hate Harris, he will be a solid rotational shooter depending on the lineup. I doubt any of them play significant minutes unless injuries occur. And if injuries occur we are in a better spot to handle them than last year without being historically bad again. As for trading for a superstar, we can still do that with a bunch of expiring contracts of various sizes to match salaries. As for drafting one, thats what we are hoping with Cade (#1 overall pick two years ago who was hurt most of last year and was averaging 19/6/6 before getting hurt with no help around him), Ivey and Duren. Thats literally the whole point of them being here and letting them develop, which they will, and now have some vets around to help show them what it takes. If we were all young guys we would have the Rockets last year or the T Wolves who have talent but nobody showed these guys how to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Tso Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 Record improvement has to start somewhere. It's rare for a team to just go from 17 wins to 50 wins in 1 season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcheryea Posted July 11, 2023 Share Posted July 11, 2023 3 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said: Uhhhh no? I think the Rockets moves were dumber than the Pistons moves. I don’t agree that you need vets amidst a rebuild. Once you have a good roster, sure. The Pistons moves seemed to me like they were trying to win this year…at least, to make the playoffs. Which they still aren’t going to do despite their moves. I just think they’re better off tanking another year with young pups & using their resources next year. They’re stuck between a rebuild and mediocrity, which is the worst place to be in the NBA. Be absolutely dreadful or be a top 10 team. They are neither right now. you can't have a team of guys on their rookie contracts. it's going to be 15 guys trying to get their own with no idea how to actually win games or prepare themselves to be successful. it doesn't matter how talented they are you can't be horrible forever. fans stop showing up, owners get pissed off, people get fired, and any players that look like they might become superstars get sick of losing and leave. the pistons are going into troy weaver's fourth year and they've won 60 games so far under him. the goodwill and "we'll be better next year" talking points stop meaning anything if you don't get better. you can't tell a number 1 overall pick who's 6 years into his career and never won 30 games in a season to keep being patient they are trying to win. they want their players to experience being in close games and figure out how to win them. that's how player growth and development works. was it bad for orlando win 34 games last year? was it bad for the pacers to win 35? have those teams maxed out? are they perpetually going to be 11th and 12th seeds now? no they're relying on all of their young players getting more experience and continuing to get better just like the pistons are they didn't flood their cap sheet with huge free agents to win 38 games for the next 4 years. they took on expirings so they would keep flexibility next year (hold on that sounds familiar). they could have something like $60 million in space next summer. if they have a good enough year this year and want try to make the playoffs at that point, they'll use it to sign guys that will actually help them do that 3 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said: I agree with this, which is why I was surprised to see them bring in all of these vets who will theoretically steal minutes away from the younger guys. To me, they should be grinding with their young dudes to either hit on some of these dudes or be terrible. They’re not the only NBA team that does things like this. I just feel like they’re best off doing what the Cavs did. Go stupid young & suck until you can move a bunch of pieces for a superstar that fits with your young core. Or draft that superstar if you get lotto luck. none of the vets will be taking substantial minutes from any young guys that actually matter. they could easily move all of them before the deadline. cade, ivey, and duren are starters. ausar will probably come off the bench until they move bogdanovic but he'll probably play 20-25 minutes a night before then. the players that need to have the ball will have the ball and the rest of the guys will do their jobs of hitting open shots what they're doing is letting cade and ivey take them as far as they can, which is probably something like 30 wins and another top 7 pick and figuring out who is a real guy and who isn't the cavs sucked for 3 years. then they decided, after drafting mobley, before garland was an all star, they wanted to win. they signed ricky rubio and he played 28 mpg before he got hurt, then they replaced him with rondo. kevin love was their first big off the bench. you don't think those guys helped their young players at all? if they won 27 games that year they wouldn't have traded for mitchell just draft a superstar, why don't more teams think of that 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BetterCallSaul Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 2 hours ago, catcheryea said: you can't have a team of guys on their rookie contracts. it's going to be 15 guys trying to get their own with no idea how to actually win games or prepare themselves to be successful. it doesn't matter how talented they are I disagree. That’s what your coaching staff is for. That’s why you don’t draft idiots. 2 hours ago, catcheryea said: you can't be horrible forever. fans stop showing up, owners get pissed off, people get fired, and any players that look like they might become superstars get sick of losing and leave. the pistons are going into troy weaver's fourth year and they've won 60 games so far under him. the goodwill and "we'll be better next year" talking points stop meaning anything if you don't get better. you can't tell a number 1 overall pick who's 6 years into his career and never won 30 games in a season to keep being patient I get this. But it’s also how you end up in a cycle of mediocrity. Do you think winning 40 games is enough to keep Cade happy? I sincerely doubt he would leave for them winning 15 games, but stick around for being average to below average. 2 hours ago, catcheryea said: they are trying to win. they want their players to experience being in close games and figure out how to win them. that's how player growth and development works. was it bad for orlando win 34 games last year? was it bad for the pacers to win 35? have those teams maxed out? are they perpetually going to be 11th and 12th seeds now? no they're relying on all of their young players getting more experience and continuing to get better just like the pistons are The Pacers are also stuck in mediocrity. The Magic have way more talent than the Pistons. Not the same thing IMO. 2 hours ago, catcheryea said: they didn't flood their cap sheet with huge free agents to win 38 games for the next 4 years. they took on expirings so they would keep flexibility next year (hold on that sounds familiar). they could have something like $60 million in space next summer. if they have a good enough year this year and want try to make the playoffs at that point, they'll use it to sign guys that will actually help them do that Makes sense. I thought Harris and Bogdanovic were on longer deals. Turns out not. Fair. 2 hours ago, catcheryea said: the cavs sucked for 3 years. then they decided, after drafting mobley, before garland was an all star, they wanted to win. they signed ricky rubio and he played 28 mpg before he got hurt, then they replaced him with rondo. kevin love was their first big off the bench. you don't think those guys helped their young players at all? if they won 27 games that year they wouldn't have traded for mitchell Love was a holdover because no1 would trade for him. He was subsequently cut & was becoming a problem with attitude. Rubio helped immensely, but was a bench guy who got those inflated minutes because our guards couldn’t stay healthy at all. He started a big chunk of games for Garland. 2 hours ago, catcheryea said: just draft a superstar, why don't more teams think of that You should be putting yourself in position for that opportunity. Teams that wallow in the middle have virtually zero chance at landing a franchise-altering superstar. Even though the lottery doesn’t guarantee anything, there is still merit to tanking and giving yourself the shot at #1. When my Cavs were bleh, I wanted them to be REALLY BAD, not semi-successful. We have differing views on how to build that team for a title run. They did nothing to make me think they could be primed for a title run in a few years. I prefer the OKC approach. They’re insanely young, but also have enough promising young talent to make a huge leap forward once they mature. The Pistons have no sure-fire star and the pieces of their roster are clunky & disjointed. Whatevs. Not my team, so I really don’t care. Just feel like their off-season was kind of pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catcheryea Posted July 12, 2023 Share Posted July 12, 2023 35 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: I disagree. That’s what your coaching staff is for. That’s why you don’t draft idiots. do you think it's a coincidence that the youngest teams in the nba year to year are generally the worst teams in the league and the oldest teams are the ones competing for championships? the youngest team to win a championship in the last 40 years was the 15 warriors and their average age was over 26 35 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: I get this. But it’s also how you end up in a cycle of mediocrity. Do you think winning 40 games is enough to keep Cade happy? I sincerely doubt he would leave for them winning 15 games, but stick around for being average to below average. if they win 30 games this year and 40 games next year, yes, that's more than enough to keep him happy. if they're winning 40 games a year 3 years after that he'll leave. it's about getting better year by year. teams don't jump from 20 wins to 65 in one offseason because they finally decided to flip a switch. if you continue to lose 60 games a yaer, like i said, your best players will walk. it's why anthony davis left new orleans and it's why giannis didn't leave milwaukee 36 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: The Pacers are also stuck in mediocrity. The Magic have way more talent than the Pistons. Not the same thing IMO. the pacers have a brand new identity than the team that started the 21-22 season. they moved their all star to build around a new centerpiece, and in his first full season there, at 22, he led them to 35 wins and was an all star. they only have two players left on the team that were there at the start of the season 2 years ago. that's the exact same thing as saying orlando is stuck in mediocrity because they've been bad since dwight left and ignoring that they have a completely different group of young players than they did 2 years ago 36 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said: You should be putting yourself in position for that opportunity. Teams that wallow in the middle have virtually zero chance at landing a franchise-altering superstar. Even though the lottery doesn’t guarantee anything, there is still merit to tanking and giving yourself the shot at #1. When my Cavs were bleh, I wanted them to be REALLY BAD, not semi-successful. We have differing views on how to build that team for a title run. They did nothing to make me think they could be primed for a title run in a few years. I prefer the OKC approach. They’re insanely young, but also have enough promising young talent to make a huge leap forward once they mature. The Pistons have no sure-fire star and the pieces of their roster are clunky & disjointed. Whatevs. Not my team, so I really don’t care. Just feel like their off-season was kind of pointless. have you watched the nba for less than 5 years? it's either that or you're pretending that detroit hasn't done exactly what you've said you would want them do. they chased the 8 seed for 10 years. they finally decided to blow it up and immediately tanked their way to the #1 pick. they tanked. they tanked harder than anybody else. they've been the worst team in the nba by 30 games over the last 4 seasons. how much worse would you like them to be? they've made 8 first round picks in those 4 years. one of them is gone, one sucks, one is a rotational nba player, and the other 5 have played less than a full season. they're going to be bad again. their core players are too young not to be. detroit won 17 games last year, orlando won 34. detroit got the 5th pick, orlando go the 6th pick. detroit could win 30 games and still be the fourth worst team in the league also this draft sucks. it's not the one to throw away a season for. the extra 4 or 5 wins alec burks and joe harris might help them win don't matter cade is supposed to be that guy and if he's an all nba type of player they'll be in the playoffs as long as he and the other guys continue to get better. if he's not then they'll see if one of the other guys is and if it's worth building around him. otherwise they'll blow it up again you prefer the okc approach of trading two hall of famers in their prime and getting back, what, like 8 first round picks? instead of the detroit approach where they move on from their two franchise players and get back $60 million in dead money and the expiring contracts of brandon knight and john henson? that's brave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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