MVP Race

[Soko]

7 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

On those three drives, they ran 10 total plays. 9 of the 10 were passing plays. Y'all are awfully quick to blame Mahomes and awfully quick to absolve Brees.

Wrong. Blaming Mahomes is as logical as blaming Brees. When you lose a game 54-51, the QB isn't the guy to blame. The same is true when you lose a game 48-40. Now, if you want to play the blame game, you can't absolve Brees and indict Mahomes. In a game where the defense can't get a stop, a three-and-out generally gets you the same results that a turnover does. We saw that in the NO-TB game.

"Only" gave up 41 points. LOL.

It’s NBA logic. Guy can score 60 points in a game, but if he doesn’t make the game winning buzzer beater after the team gives up 120, it’s his fault.

[Raves]

10 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s NBA logic. Guy can score 60 points in a game, but if he doesn’t make the game winning buzzer beater after the team gives up 120, it’s his fault.

If the guy plays 0 defense and just lets his man walk to the basket for 40 as well... then yeah.

[Soko]

18 minutes ago, Raves said:

If the guy plays 0 defense and just lets his man walk to the basket for 40 as well... then yeah.

Which would work in the NBA, but not in the NFL, unless you want Mahomes to get out there and play some linebacker. 

Mahomes didn’t play a perfect, all-time great game - but he essentially would have had to in order to win. Y’all out here saying “it’s his fault they blew it” are stretching things. Especially if we actually look at the plays where the ball got turned over.

[jrry32]

38 minutes ago, Raves said:

Oklahoma "Only" gives up like 47 points a game but they score more than that every game so they win.  The defense limited the Rams offense to few enough points that the Chiefs would've won based on the points they scored.  If your offense scores 51 and your defense gives up 40, you should win right?  So what happened with that game?  Why did the Chiefs not win when their offense put up 11 more points than the Rams offense?

This is a really, really, really bad argument. How much would the Rams have scored if the Chiefs had punted instead of turning the ball over? Odds are that they score at least 14 points.

33 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s NBA logic. Guy can score 60 points in a game, but if he doesn’t make the game winning buzzer beater after the team gives up 120, it’s his fault.

Hit the nail on the head. I know when I watched this game:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201706070CLE.html:

I thought to myself, "LeBron really cost the Cavs the game. If only he had dropped his 39 points, 11 rebounds, and 9 assists without committing any turnovers, the Cavs would have beaten the Warriors. LeBron caused that loss."

[Mid Iowa]

Well, jrry(whatever) and Yingyang, you're right after all. Brees is clearly not as good (with zero turnovers in his 1 loss) as Mahomes (with 7 turnovers in his 2 losses), regardless of how many punts or rolls of tape were used.

I'm guessing Mahomes will be the league and SuperBowl MVP (regardless of whether he wins the SuperBowl) based on these standards. Assuming he even makes it to the SB, which is highly likely.

So, I'll let you guys have the win, here.

[Mid Iowa]

4 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Mahomes didn’t play a perfect, all-time great game - but he essentially would have had to in order to win.

Brees beat that team. Didn't turn it over, either. Also didn't play a perfect game. Amazing the difference.

[Soko]

9 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

This is a really, really, really bad argument. How much would the Rams have scored if the Chiefs had punted instead of turning the ball over? Odds are that they score at least 14 points.

Not only odds, statistics too.

Rams had 13 drives sans the one-play drives at the end of each half. They scored touchdowns on 38.5% (5/13). So on the 5 turnovers - that’s two TDs.

EDIT: Although, statistics are odds too, I guess. But that’s just them fleshed out a little.

[jrry32]

Just now, Mid Iowa said:

Well, jrry(whatever) and Yingyang, you're right after all. Brees is clearly not as good (with zero turnovers in his 1 loss) as Mahomes (with 7 turnovers in his 2 losses), regardless of how many punts or rolls of tape were used.

I'm guessing Mahomes will be the league and SuperBowl MVP (regardless of whether he wins the SuperBowl) based on these standards. Assuming he even makes it to the SB, which is highly likely.

So, I'll let you guys have the win, here.

Nobody is even getting into who the better player is. We're pointing out the silliness of you cherry-picking one stat to focus on in a total of three games. The Chiefs two losses were 43-40 to NE in NE and 54-51 to LA in LA. You can't blame the QB for them coming up short. Hell, the Saints won 21-18 over the BROWNS in NO. Imagine if Mahomes had only done enough for the Chiefs to put up 21 points against the Patriots or Rams. Give me 3.5 TOs and 45.5 points over 0 TOs and 21 points. Your criticism of Mahomes is just exceptionally weak.

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Well, jrry(whatever) and Yingyang, you're right after all. Brees is clearly not as good (with zero turnovers in his 1 loss) as Mahomes (with 7 turnovers in his 2 losses), regardless of how many punts or rolls of tape were used.

I'm guessing Mahomes will be the league and SuperBowl MVP (regardless of whether he wins the SuperBowl) based on these standards. Assuming he even makes it to the SB, which is highly likely.

So, I'll let you guys have the win, here.

So hypocrisy and straw men. Are there anymore points you’d like to make?

4 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Brees beat that team. Didn't turn it over, either. Also didn't play a perfect game. Amazing the difference.

Almost like the Saints have a defense or something...

EDIT: And here I am, again being drawn in by homers to move off my original point. Congrats! Your attempts to praise Brees and discredit Mahomes are noticeable, and again, hypocritical. 

[Chiefer]

43 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

It’s NBA logic. Guy can score 60 points in a game, but if he doesn’t make the game winning buzzer beater after the team gives up 120, it’s his fault.

But when you turn the ball over at a high rate, and give the opposing team 14 free points.

how can you blame the defense? Technically speaking the Rams offense only scored 39.

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

Brees beat that team. Didn't turn it over, either. Also didn't play a perfect game. Amazing the difference.

Brees beat that team in NEW ORLEANS (with the aid of a terrible ref crew). Would the Saints have won in LA? Who knows. However, it's worth pointing out that the Saints could have easily lost that game despite jumping out to a 35-14 lead. Had Marcus Peters not blown that coverage (because he wasn't ready at the snap), the Saints could have lost that game 42-38. Would it have been Brees' fault? No. But you'd probably be here touting Brees' lack of TOs despite the Saints' inability to score points in the second half of that game (which is what allowed the Rams to make a comeback).

The simple point we're making is that blaming a QB for losing a shootout is silly. And pretending that turnovers are the only thing that matter is equally silly.

[Mid Iowa]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Nobody is even getting into who the better player is. We're pointing out the silliness of you cherry-picking one stat to focus on in a total of three games. The Chiefs two losses were 43-40 to NE in NE and 54-51 to LA in LA. You can't blame the QB for them coming up short. Hell, the Saints won 21-18 over the BROWNS in NO. Imagine if Mahomes had only done enough for the Chiefs to put up 21 points against the Patriots or Rams. Give me 3.5 TOs and 45.5 points over 0 TOs and 21 points. Your criticism of Mahomes is just exceptionally weak.

How is giving the opposition 7 additional chances weak, or not important, or not the QB's fault when it was the QB who did it?? I just can't comprehend your "logic".

Regarding the bold piece. The big difference? Who won, who lost?

[Mid Iowa]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Brees beat that team in NEW ORLEANS (with the aid of a terrible ref crew). Would the Saints have won in LA? Who knows. However, it's worth pointing out that the Saints could have easily lost that game despite jumping out to a 35-14 lead. Had Marcus Peters not blown that coverage (because he wasn't ready at the snap), the Saints could have lost that game 42-38. Would it have been Brees' fault? No. But you'd probably be here touting Brees' lack of TOs despite the Saints' inability to score points in the second half of that game (which is what allowed the Rams to make a comeback).

The simple point we're making is that blaming a QB for losing a shootout is silly. And pretending that turnovers are the only thing that matter is equally silly.

And now your talking scenarios rather than fact. That's weak. Blaming the officiating (I'm remembering the homer comments). If's and but's don't win anything.

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, Chiefer said:

But when you turn the ball over at a high rate, and give the opposing team 14 free points.

how can you blame the defense? Technically speaking the Rams offense only scored 39.

How can you blame the defense for allowing 40 points? We have vastly different standards for acceptable defensive performance. Further, if those drives had resulted in TOs instead of punts, as @Yin-Yang pointed out, the statistics from the game indicate that the Rams would have still scored 54 points.

[jrry32]

2 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

And now your talking scenarios rather than fact. That's weak. Blaming the officiating (I'm remembering the homer comments). If's and but's don't win anything.

Just as I thought, you don't have a legitimate response. Just go back to "giving" us the win. It's better for all parties.