Lebron's legacy !!! ??? !!!

[seminoles1]

16 minutes ago, malak1 said:

A huge part of the LeBron = GOAT argument is that he took a team of nobodies to the finals and that he never lost in the first round like Jordan has. Those things appear less impressive now that he’s in the tougher conference. Right or wrong, I’m just saying that’s how people will view it. 

This is also a worse LeBron. 2019 LeBron is not 2015 LeBron or 2012 LeBron. It's like holding the Wizards not making the playoffs over Jordan's head (though not quite that extreme).

He also missed a huge chunk of the season right when the team was hitting its stride. Who knows what would have happened had he stayed healthy. That has to be taken into account as well.

[dtait93]

21 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

This is also a worse LeBron. 2019 LeBron is not 2015 LeBron or 2012 LeBron. It's like holding the Wizards not making the playoffs over Jordan's head (though not quite that extreme).

He also missed a huge chunk of the season right when the team was hitting its stride. Who knows what would have happened had he stayed healthy. That has to be taken into account as well.

Literally not even close and an awful comparison.

Jordan was coming off 3 years of retirement and was 4-5 years older than Lebron is now. Lebron is coming off a Finals appearance and his best season since the Miami days.

In 1998 (Jordan's 34 year old season) he also was not 1996 Jordan or 1991 Jordan, yet he still led the Bulls to the best record in the East and tied for the best record in the league without Pippen for half the season. He also was league MVP, First-Team All-NBA, First-Team All-Defense, and we all already know what happened in the playoffs.

 

[J-ALL-DAY]

Age for MJ isn't comparable as LeBron has played far more minutes than Jordan at that point of his career. 

If LeBron doesn't get hurt, good chance the Lakers are closer to the 5th/6th seed than what they are now. When he went out and then Lonzo went out, the team completely fell apart and they can't get back on track. 

Obviously this won't be a good look on his legacy, but all things considered he will be fine. All it will do is add pressure on him next year to make the playoffs and do some serious damage when he gets there. 

[MVPatrickMahomes15]

LeBron isn't even better than Blake Griffin right now.

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Age for MJ isn't comparable as LeBron has played far more minutes than Jordan at that point of his career. 

If LeBron doesn't get hurt, good chance the Lakers are closer to the 5th/6th seed than what they are now. When he went out and then Lonzo went out, the team completely fell apart and they can't get back on track. 

Obviously this won't be a good look on his legacy, but all things considered he will be fine. All it will do is add pressure on him next year to make the playoffs and do some serious damage when he gets there. 

Don't forget how he put the whole team on the trade block, and how he doesn't play defense but points the fingers at others to - setting a poor example and displaying awful leadership.

Here's a display of his awesome leadership during the Indiana blow out.

Here is him pouting after the JR blunder. Shouldn't a better leader be trying to rally the troops? There was still 5 minutes to go.

 

Lebron is divisive. "This is my team, and you do what the f*** I tell you all to do, or we get rid of y'all."

Kyrie decided he didn't want to play with him anymore, Durant called the environment surrounding him toxic, and Paul George chose to play in no-where land Oklahoma over his hometown.

[J-ALL-DAY]

Just now, dtait93 said:

Don't forget how he put the whole team on the trade block, and how he doesn't play defense but points the fingers at others to - setting a poor example and displaying awful leadership.

Here's a display of his awesome leadership during the Indiana blow out.

Here is him pouting after the JR blunder. Shouldn't a better leader be trying to rally the troops? There was still 5 minutes to go.

 

Lebron is divisive. "This is my team, and you do what the f*** I tell you all to do, or we get rid of y'all."

Kyrie decided he didn't want to play with him anymore, Durant called the environment surrounding him toxic, and Paul George chose to play in no-where land Oklahoma over his hometown.

LeBron definitely has suspect moments, that's not up for debate. 

But putting the whole team on the trade block? We're putting that on LeBron? This is Anthony F'n Davis we are talking about. Any team that could realistically get him would try to get him. That's not something to put on LeBron. Tatum himself said I'd trade myself for Anthony Davis as well. 

And the youngsters who were on the block have played just fine after the trade talks, so that's not a good excuse. The team is broken though. They play well in spurts, and then terrible in others. Ball's injury really started the downward spiral of the team. The defensive intensity they brought game in and game out is gone and the rotations by Walton have been something disgusting. But when you sign half the team to one year deals, what do you expect? Ball's injury led to Rondo playing 30+ minutes a game and in 2019 that absolutely can't happen. Rondo is a 15-18 MPG player at best. His defense is atrocious and since he doesn't have any shooting around him, it makes it so much harder on the team since everyone just plays off of him. 

19 games left, today is a must win. Let's see how it plays out, but I think they will make a close run at the 8th spot. Just not sure if they get it after the Suns loss. 

[dtait93]

6 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

LeBron definitely has suspect moments, that's not up for debate. 

But putting the whole team on the trade block? We're putting that on LeBron? This is Anthony F'n Davis we are talking about. Any team that could realistically get him would try to get him. That's not something to put on LeBron. Tatum himself said I'd trade myself for Anthony Davis as well. 

And the youngsters who were on the block have played just fine after the trade talks, so that's not a good excuse. The team is broken though. They play well in spurts, and then terrible in others. Ball's injury really started the downward spiral of the team. The defensive intensity they brought game in and game out is gone and the rotations by Walton have been something disgusting. But when you sign half the team to one year deals, what do you expect? Ball's injury led to Rondo playing 30+ minutes a game and in 2019 that absolutely can't happen. Rondo is a 15-18 MPG player at best. His defense is atrocious and since he doesn't have any shooting around him, it makes it so much harder on the team since everyone just plays off of him. 

19 games left, today is a must win. Let's see how it plays out, but I think they will make a close run at the 8th spot. Just not sure if they get it after the Suns loss. 

I'm putting it on Lebron. He's the de-facto GM and the whole team knows it. It wasn't realistic for the Lakers to get him at that point in time and he should have known that. It definitely caused division and he's the culprit.

But I've always heard Lebron is good enough to carry garbage rosters? Even if he isn't, shouldn't he be able to at least keep them afloat? He is 4-8 since his return from injury with losses to the Hawks, AD-less Pelicans, Grizzlies, and Suns. All 4 of those losses came 12 days or longer after his return, so I'm not buying the injury excuse or the legs aren't under him yet excuse. He wanted Rondo. He wanted Lance. He wanted McGee. He wanted Beasley. He wanted KCP. Do you really think they would have been signed if Lebron didn't want them? That's on Lebron. Don't get me wrong he's great, but if he's as great as everyone's preaching then he should be able to overcome the loss of Lonzo freaking Ball.

He chose all of this. The finger can be pointed at Magic for not getting another superstar to pair with Lebron, but Lebron is the one who chose to put his career Magic's hands. The finger can be pointed at Jeani Buss for not letting Magic fire Walton, but Lebron is the one who chose to go to an organization ran by her. Time for Lebron to look in the mirror. He chose where he wanted to go, he chooses not to give effort on defense, and he chooses to galvanize or divide. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

12 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

I'm putting it on Lebron. He's the de-facto GM and the whole team knows it. It wasn't realistic for the Lakers to get him at that point in time and he should have known that. It definitely caused division and he's the culprit.

But I've always heard Lebron is good enough to carry garbage rosters? Even if he isn't, shouldn't he be able to at least keep them afloat? He is 4-8 since his return from injury with losses to the Hawks, AD-less Pelicans, Grizzlies, and Suns. All 4 of those losses came 12 days or longer after his return, so I'm not buying the injury excuse or the legs aren't under him yet excuse. He wanted Rondo. He wanted Lance. He wanted McGee. He wanted Beasley. He wanted KCP. Do you really think they would have been signed if Lebron didn't want them? That's on Lebron. Don't get me wrong he's great, but if he's as great as everyone's preaching then he should be able to overcome the loss of Lonzo freaking Ball.

He chose all of this. The finger can be pointed at Magic for not getting another superstar to pair with Lebron, but Lebron is the one who chose to put his career Magic's hands. The finger can be pointed at Jeani Buss for not letting Magic fire Walton, but Lebron is the one who chose to go to an organization ran by her. Time for Lebron to look in the mirror. He chose where he wanted to go, he chooses not to give effort on defense, and he chooses to galvanize or divide. 

Okay, so you are putting the Lakers wanting a bonafide superstar who is a top 5-7 player in the league? Oh man, what a travesty!!!!! And again, the youngsters who were the main pieces on the block have played just fine after the trade rumors. 

So we are doing this thing where EVERY move made by the Lakers was because of LeBron? Okay even if that is true, how is that relevant here? Are you saying he is a bad GM and can't evaluate rosters properly? Glad we got that out of the way.

Through it all, what exactly are you trying to get at? That LeBron made his bed, now it is time for him to sleep in it? Cool.....But this was about does not making the playoffs affect his legacy. I'm saying it won't be a good look, but ultimately wouldn't affect it much at all. What it will do is put pressure on him NEXT season to make the playoffs and do damage. You could point to him missing 18 games and the team going 6-12 in his absence as the reason the downward spiral started. But then for him to miss the playoffs again next season? Nah, that can't happen unless he just completely falls off a cliff and he becomes washed like Kobe became after his Achilles injury. 

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Okay, so you are putting the Lakers wanting a bonafide superstar who is a top 5-7 player in the league? Oh man, what a travesty!!!!! And again, the youngsters who were the main pieces on the block have played just fine after the trade rumors. 

Yes because it was unrealistic to land him at that point in time. They may have been fine after the trade rumors, but when the trade rumors were swirling it definitely messed with their psyche. Why cause mass panic amongst your teammates like that for something so utterly improbable? He's created a me and them mentality instead of an us mentality. That video of him sitting as far away from his teammates as possible during the Indiana blowout and publicly shaming them by telling them to leave if they can't handle the distraction of a playoff push is proof. He needs to galvanize them instead of pushing them away and tearing them down.

 

2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

So we are doing this thing where EVERY move made by the Lakers was because of LeBron? Okay even if that is true, how is that relevant here? Are you saying he is a bad GM and can't evaluate rosters properly? Glad we got that out of the way.

Through it all, what exactly are you trying to get at? That LeBron made his bed, now it is time for him to sleep in it? Cool.....But this was about does not making the playoffs affect his legacy. I'm saying it won't be a good look, but ultimately wouldn't affect it much at all. What it will do is put pressure on him NEXT season to make the playoffs and do damage. You could point to him missing 18 games and the team going 6-12 in his absence as the reason the downward spiral started. But then for him to miss the playoffs again next season? Nah, that can't happen unless he just completely falls off a cliff and he becomes washed like Kobe became after his Achilles injury.

The point is that it's time for him to stop pointing the finger (literally) at everyone else, and for all his fans to stop putting all the ownace on everyone but Lebron.

The downward spiral began with his injury, but it didn't have to continue to spiral out of control. He's the leader of the team and that's his fault for allowing it to get to this point. How do you go from 8 straight Finals appearances to missing the playoffs entirely the second you enter the stronger conference if your the self proclaimed GOAT? Why should we give him a pass for completely missing the playoffs? That CANNOT happen if your claiming yourself better than MJ and it 100% affects his legacy since he is putting himself above the real 23. The injury is not an excuse and his teammates and coach are not an excuse since that is what he chose.

[J-ALL-DAY]

2 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Yes because it was unrealistic to land him at that point in time. They may have been fine after the trade rumors, but when the trade rumors were swirling it definitely messed with their psyche. Why cause mass panic amongst your teammates like that for something so utterly improbable? He's created a me and them mentality instead of an us mentality. That video of him sitting as far away from his teammates as possible during the Indiana blowout and publicly shaming them by telling them to leave if they can't handle the distraction of a playoff push is proof. He needs to galvanize them instead of pushing them away and tearing them down.

 

The point is that it's time for him to stop pointing the finger (literally) at everyone else, and for all his fans to stop putting all the ownace on everyone but Lebron.

The downward spiral began with his injury, but it didn't have to continue to spiral out of control. He's the leader of the team and that's his fault for allowing it to get to this point. How do you go from 8 straight Finals appearances to missing the playoffs entirely the second you enter the stronger conference if your the self proclaimed GOAT? Why should we give him a pass for completely missing the playoffs? That CANNOT happen if your claiming yourself better than MJ and it 100% affects his legacy since he is putting himself above the real 23. The injury is not an excuse and his teammates and coach are not an excuse since that is what he chose.

The injury is not an excuse? The 6-12 record during his absence and falling from the 4th seed to the 9th seed upon his return says otherwise. Is that the only reason they are in this position? No, but it is the biggest reason. Are you denying that? 

He is to be blamed for certain things no doubt. Who is saying otherwise? This is a question asking if his legacy takes a hit if the Lakers miss the playoffs. And I said it won't be all that big of a hit, but if he misses the playoffs next year while still being an elite player? Then sure, it will affect his legacy. 

How many times have we played this game with LeBron? How many games/series has his legacy been on the line? Why does that continue to happen? So say he did make the playoffs and lost in the 2nd round or WCF, then what? His legacy gets a boost from that? No, no one would say doing that boosts his legacy. Only thing that would boost his legacy is if he actually won a championship in LA…. And even then, those that have him behind MJ will still have him behind MJ. So in reality, nothing is going to change ones stance on the LBJ vs MJ debate. 

[dtait93]

5 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

The injury is not an excuse? The 6-12 record during his absence and falling from the 4th seed to the 9th seed upon his return says otherwise. Is that the only reason they are in this position? No, but it is the biggest reason. Are you denying that? 

Incorrect. The injury is an excuse that they are still in this position. They are 4-8 since his return and his lack of leadership, causing division, pouting, lazy defense, and blaming everyone but himself are just as big of a reason they are the 9th seed as his injury.

 

11 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

He is to be blamed for certain things no doubt. Who is saying otherwise? This is a question asking if his legacy takes a hit if the Lakers miss the playoffs. And I said it won't be all that big of a hit, but if he misses the playoffs next year while still being an elite player? Then sure, it will affect his legacy.

Lebron is saying otherwise. When things go wrong, everyone is to blame but him in his mind. Missing the playoffs this year while still being an elite player AND self-proclaimed GOAT should affect his legacy. Every single thing counts when you're in Mt. Rushmoore territory and he rightfully gets nitpicked.

 

16 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

How many times have we played this game with LeBron? How many games/series has his legacy been on the line? Why does that continue to happen? So say he did make the playoffs and lost in the 2nd round or WCF, then what? His legacy gets a boost from that? No, no one would say doing that boosts his legacy. Only thing that would boost his legacy is if he actually won a championship in LA…. And even then, those that have him behind MJ will still have him behind MJ. So in reality, nothing is going to change ones stance on the LBJ vs MJ debate. 

I'd say it continues to happen mostly because of the media, mainly ESPN. But ever since he said he's the GOAT on his new Barbershop Talk show and tweeting how he's ready for the MJ vs. Lebron GOAT debate, he's the one who is putting himself under the microscope leading to conversations like you and I are having now. 

Like, everyone needs to pump the brakes on the Jordan vs. Lebron debate. Are we sure he's even passed Kareem yet? I don't think he has, but if you or others think he has but then completely misses the playoffs that could knock him down a peg in a lot of people's minds.

[J-ALL-DAY]

4 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Incorrect. The injury is an excuse that they are still in this position. They are 4-8 since his return and his lack of leadership, causing division, pouting, lazy defense, and blaming everyone but himself are just as big of a reason they are the 9th seed as his injury.

 

Lebron is saying otherwise. When things go wrong, everyone is to blame but him in his mind. Missing the playoffs this year while still being an elite player AND self-proclaimed GOAT should affect his legacy. Every single thing counts when you're in Mt. Rushmoore territory and he rightfully gets nitpicked.

 

I'd say it continues to happen mostly because of the media, mainly ESPN. But ever since he said he's the GOAT on his new Barbershop Talk show and tweeting how he's ready for the MJ vs. Lebron GOAT debate, he's the one who is putting himself under the microscope leading to conversations like you and I are having now. 

Like, everyone needs to pump the brakes on the Jordan vs. Lebron debate. Are we sure he's even passed Kareem yet? I don't think he has, but if you or others think he has but then completely misses the playoffs that could knock him down a peg in a lot of people's minds.

Let me ask you this, where do you currently rank him? And where will you rank him if he makes the playoffs and gets to the WCFs and loses? And where do you rank him if he misses the playoffs completely?

Not sure how you can say "incorrect" when it is actual fact that the Lakers started to slip when he got hurt. With him out, they went 6-12. There is nothing "incorrect" about that being the biggest reason they are in this position. You are correct that now he is back, they should be winning more and not losing to teams like the Suns.

It continues because he is the biggest star out there and anything regarding him leads to the biggest ratings. Why do you think he is a topic of even the smallest things on all these sports shows? You think it is just a coincidence that happens?

20 years from now are people going to be bringing up LeBron not making the playoffs in year 16? No, that's why as most things, people will make more of it than what it is. Either he will be the GOAT or he won't be the GOAT. Him missing the playoffs one year won't determine that. 

 

[dtait93]

18 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Let me ask you this, where do you currently rank him? And where will you rank him if he makes the playoffs and gets to the WCFs and loses? And where do you rank him if he misses the playoffs completely?

Not sure how you can say "incorrect" when it is actual fact that the Lakers started to slip when he got hurt. With him out, they went 6-12. There is nothing "incorrect" about that being the biggest reason they are in this position. You are correct that now he is back, they should be winning more and not losing to teams like the Suns.

It continues because he is the biggest star out there and anything regarding him leads to the biggest ratings. Why do you think he is a topic of even the smallest things on all these sports shows? You think it is just a coincidence that happens?

20 years from now are people going to be bringing up LeBron not making the playoffs in year 16? No, that's why as most things, people will make more of it than what it is. Either he will be the GOAT or he won't be the GOAT. Him missing the playoffs one year won't determine that. 

 

I personally have him 3rd behind MJ and Kareem. If he completely misses the playoffs after going out West I may move him down a peg because I think it takes some of the wind out of the 8 straight Finals appearances. If he makes the playoffs I leave him 3rd but he would have to win another championship for me to consider moving him to 2nd.

It’s incorrect because even though they’ve slipped after he got hurt, they are 4-8 and are spiraling out of control since his return. His inability to lead/will his team to victories against the likes of the garbage Suns and Hawk is just as big of a reason they are 9th as his injury. They have an equally bad win % during his injury as they do since his return.

Edit: Actually they have a worse win % since his return lol

[J-ALL-DAY]

4 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

I personally have him 3rd behind MJ and Kareem. If he completely misses the playoffs after going out West I may move him down a peg because I think it takes some of the wind out of the 8 straight Finals appearances. If he makes the playoffs I leave him 3rd but he would have to win another championship for me to consider moving him to 2nd.

It’s incorrect because even though they’ve slipped after he got hurt, they are 4-8 and are spiraling out of control since his return. His inability to lead/will his team to victories against the likes of the garbage Suns and Hawk is just as big of a reason they are 9th as his injury. They have an equally bad win % during his injury as they do since his return.

Edit: Actually they have a worse win % since his return lol

Okay, so you have him 3rd, which is fair. So if he loses, all of a sudden he drops to 4th? Who then surpasses him?

Sure, the Lakers losing to the Hawks/Pelicans/Suns isn't a good look on LeBron and those are games he is typically able to win single handily. And he doesn't been able to do so.

So if he wins another ring he surpasses Kareem then? Cool, definitely wouldn't pass MJ on most folks rankings and on others him winning another ring will solidify him as the GOAT. Me personally? Nothing he can do at this point will surpass MJ.....Because well, MJ was just better. LeBron isn't all of a sudden going to start improving in seasons 16, 17, 18, etc. His resume' can improve with a ring for sure, but his peak is gone and it was a bit below MJ's peak. 

[dtait93]

1 hour ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Okay, so you have him 3rd, which is fair. So if he loses, all of a sudden he drops to 4th? Who then surpasses him?

Sure, the Lakers losing to the Hawks/Pelicans/Suns isn't a good look on LeBron and those are games he is typically able to win single handily. And he doesn't been able to do so.

So if he wins another ring he surpasses Kareem then? Cool, definitely wouldn't pass MJ on most folks rankings and on others him winning another ring will solidify him as the GOAT. Me personally? Nothing he can do at this point will surpass MJ.....Because well, MJ was just better. LeBron isn't all of a sudden going to start improving in seasons 16, 17, 18, etc. His resume' can improve with a ring for sure, but his peak is gone and it was a bit below MJ's peak. 

I would elevate Duncan above him if he misses the playoffs.

I would put him above Kareem only if his Finals win is accompied by a Finals MVP.