TNF: Chiefs vs. Patriots (Opening Day!!!)

[Pats#1]

2 minutes ago, tab said:

i know, but i also know what the pats schedule is- lots of away games and a lot of good teams

 

if that O line doesnt hold, it will be a very long year

The O-Line honestly didn't look too bad, it was the defensive front 7 that got manhandled as soon as Hightower went down.

 

If Hightower goes out for an extended period of time, I would definitely start to worry.

[Hunter2_1]

They begun to finally get pressure on Brady after they sent 5 or more (quelle surprise) but before that, people on here were commenting on our OL being the real GOATS. Funny.

[kramxel]

It's pretty obvious that injury reports are a pretty shady affair.

How many times have we seen stories being leaked of players that played entire years while dealing with serious injuries without ever being listed on those injury reports? 

Everyone tinkers with them. 

 

[Revel8]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:13 PM, Pats#1 said:

You acted as though people claiming Edelman was a nobody was a common theme....it wasn't.

Sure it was.  It was, and likely continues to be, many Patriot's fans go-to argument when trying to explain why Brady is the GOAT...that he doesn't have quality help and therefore is what's causing the Patriots to win games.

[Revel8]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:47 PM, JustAnotherFan said:

You generalized an entire fan base because you supposedly read a couple of comments from two different sites, then it bring here (for whatever reason) and continued to state that it was a "recurrent theme" which is absolutely false. That sounds like someone getting emotional to me. Either that or your just trying to create an issue where there isn't one. 

Never happened.  I didn't generalize an entire fanbase anywhere. 

By your logic, that makes you emotional.

[Pats#1]

5 minutes ago, Revel8 said:

Sure it was.  It was, and likely continues to be, many Patriot's fans go-to argument when trying to explain why Brady is the GOAT...that he doesn't have quality help and therefore is what's causing the Patriots to win games.

No, the only thing that even remotely relates to that is his lack elite WR corps in the first half of his career compared to his biggest rival Peyton Manning.

Which does have merit when talking about statistical offensive numbers.

But what you are trying to say just isn't true when talking about the majority of Brady fans and their argument for him being GOAT.

He's GOAT because he has the most complete package of stats, success, and longevity.

[Revel8]

On 9/9/2017 at 9:56 PM, ztoa said:

Jabar Gaffney on Tom brady
 “My whole life,” says Jabar Gaffney, who played in New England from 2006 through ’08 and caught 70 passes from Brady, “people are going to ask me, What was it like to play with Tom? It was everything—that’s what it was like.” He is the quarterback who made them better than their dreams, who made ordinary athletes good and good athletes wealthy.

“He made me way better than I was,” says Welker, who caught 632 passes from Brady between ’07 and ’12, more than any other receiver in Brady’s career. He is the most memorable connection in most of their lives.

http://www.si.com/nfl/2017/01/17/tom-brady-receivers-brotherhood-patriots-michigan

In no way do I disagree that Brady helps make his WRs better.  This is a fundamental requirement of any great QB. 

What was being pointed out is the extreme lengths many Patriots fans were taking this to, acting like no other great QB does the same thing, acting like he's had a bad surrounding team his entire career, saying that players like Edelman are nobodies who would fail while on other teams.

[Revel8]

On 9/9/2017 at 10:43 PM, Pats#1 said:

So @Revel8 I'm guessing what you are trying to infer is that Belichick is putting people on the IR that don't need to be, and using/not using them in accordance with what they are listed as (Probable, Questionable, Doubtful).

Here are the percentages for players that played in games and were on the IR (Within division and notable opponents)

Injury Report Statistics since 2009 (Pro-Football Reference stops at 2009)

 

PATRIOTS

Probable - 92.9%

Questionable - 63.3%

Doubtful - 9.8%

 

BILLS

Probable - 88.59%

Questionable - 62.3%

Doubtful - 25%

 

JETS

Probable - 94.2%

Questionable - 71.7%

Doubtful - 10.4%

 

DOLPHINS

Probable - 91.8%

Questionable - 65.5%

Doubtful - 5.6%

 

BRONCOS

Probable - 91.2%

Questionable - 59.2%

Doubtful - 11.9%

 

STEELERS

Probable - 90%

Questionable - 49.1%

Doubtful - 10%

 

RAVENS

Probable - 87.3%

Questionable - 64.6%

Doubtful - 36.1%

 

COLTS

Probable - 89.2%

Questionable - 52.5%

Doubtful - 19.9%

 

SEAHAWKS

Probable - 92.7%

Questionable - 50.5%

Doubtful - 8.3%

 

PACKERS

Probable - 89.6%

Questionable - 59.9%

Doubtful - 14.9%

 

GIANTS

Probable - 87.3%

Questionable - 55.7%

Doubtful - 20.7%

 

 

 

AVERAGE % vs PATRIOT %

Probable - 90.2% / 92.9%

Questionable - 59.1% / 63.3%

Doubtful - 16.3% / 9.8%

 

These numbers are virtually meaningless and were pointless to post, as the primary factor which dictates these numbers, regardless of team, are actual injuries.

 

[Revel8]

On 9/10/2017 at 2:21 AM, tab said:

i know, but i also know what the pats schedule is- lots of away games and a lot of good teams

 

if that O line doesnt hold, it will be a very long year

The Patriots will be just fine. 

[Pats#1]

9 minutes ago, Revel8 said:

 

These numbers are virtually meaningless and were pointless to post, as the primary factor which dictates these numbers, regardless of team, are actual injuries.

 

The percentages actually tell you all you need to know, especially being over an 8 year span.

 

It shows that the Patriots don't play a disproportionate number of players they say are injured/questionable.

How do they cheat using the injury report then?

[Revel8]

7 minutes ago, Pats#1 said:

No, the only thing that even remotely relates to that is his lack elite WR corps in the first half of his career compared to his biggest rival Peyton Manning.

Which does have merit when talking about statistical offensive numbers.

But what you are trying to say just isn't true when talking about the majority of Brady fans and their argument for him being GOAT.

He's GOAT because he has the most complete package of stats, success, and longevity.

You weren't even involved in these discussions...and you're trying to tell me how they went?  If you don't want to believe that Brady's entire history of WRs were being put down by Patriots fans you don't have to, but it's not as if your personal belief is required, or relevant, in the first place. 

By far, the most common argument I've seen Patriots fans give for why they think Brady is the GOAT is because of rings.  That's the very first thing pointed to in the majority of cases.  Yet it's a bad argument as long as you understand how the game of football works.  It's pointed out by the skeptics that it takes an entire team to win and lose games, and Brady has been on great teams nearly his entire career.  This then typically leads to these Patriots fans to resort to trying to argue how bad his defense was, how Brady has had not help, etc.

[Revel8]

1 minute ago, Pats#1 said:

The percentages actually tell you all you need to know, especially being over an 8 year span.

 

It shows that the Patriots don't play a disproportionate number of players they say are injured/questionable.

How do they cheat using the injury report then?

They tell us almost nothing pertaining to the discussion, as they measure the wrong factors.  You're not going to see Brady unnecessarily being on the injury report for 3 straight years through this data.  You're not going to see how they listed impact players as questionable for weeks on end, only to suddenly see them play without ever having a probable tag.  These things cannot be identified through this data.  It would take weeks to compile and write the data that's actually relevant to this discussion.

[Pats#1]

12 minutes ago, Revel8 said:

They tell us almost nothing pertaining to the discussion, as they measure the wrong factors.  You're not going to see Brady unnecessarily being on the injury report for 3 straight years through this data.  You're not going to see how they listed impact players as questionable for weeks on end, only to suddenly see them play without ever having a probable tag.  These things cannot be identified through this data.  It would take weeks to compile and write the data that's actually relevant to this discussion.

Actually they can, because if the Patriots were doing it AT A HIGHER RATE than others, the numbers would show that.

Their percentage of players that played with Questionable, Doubtful, Probable tags would be disproportionate to other teams in the league, and they aren't.

No one argued the Patriots don't mess the injury report, most simply disagreed with your assertion the Pats are the only ones that do it and/or much more often than everyone else.

[Pats#1]

24 minutes ago, Revel8 said:

You weren't even involved in these discussions...and you're trying to tell me how they went?  If you don't want to believe that Brady's entire history of WRs were being put down by Patriots fans you don't have to, but it's not as if your personal belief is required, or relevant, in the first place. 

By far, the most common argument I've seen Patriots fans give for why they think Brady is the GOAT is because of rings.  That's the very first thing pointed to in the majority of cases.  Yet it's a bad argument as long as you understand how the game of football works.  It's pointed out by the skeptics that it takes an entire team to win and lose games, and Brady has been on great teams nearly his entire career.  This then typically leads to these Patriots fans to resort to trying to argue how bad his defense was, how Brady has had not help, etc.

You aren't providing any proof of these discussions, your just using anecdotal recollections of discussions you say you had.

I've been a member on this forum for years and I'm telling you the majority of fans that argue Brady is GOAT don't just yell rings, or say he's had zero WRs. They talk about his unique mix of everything that goes into the GOAT conversations.

[Revel8]

13 minutes ago, Pats#1 said:

Actually they can, because if the Patriots were doing it AT A HIGHER RATE than others, the numbers would show that.

Their percentage of players that played with Questionable, Doubtful, Probable tags would be disproportionate to other teams in the league, and they aren't.

No one argued the Patriots don't mess the injury report, most simply disagreed with your assertion the Pats are the only ones that do it and/or much more often than everyone else.

You don't seem to understand what the argument is in the first place.  The argument is not that more probable, questionable, etc Patriots players played than other teams since 2009.  Though that does seem that could be the case. 

The argument is that the Patriots are different than other teams when it comes to lying on their injury reports over the past decade an a half.  They would do things like putting their key impact players...not all players...as questionable for weeks on end.  Then these key players would suddenly play one week (and typically play well) without ever being put on the injury report as probable.  These types of tactics were frequent for the Patriots, but rarely seen from other teams. 

This is also likely why we have former Patriots players pointing out that:

"That was just a false report. That’s just how things go [in New England]" and the Patriots misrepresenting injuries on official reports is "how they do things."