Kyler Murray vs Lamar Jackson

[MSURacerDT55]

5 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

The fact you typed this out and thought it could be used against Lamar Jackson tells a lot.

Not at all, lets not act like people aren't using that record and making it seem as if he did that ALL off of his arm like a Brady or Brees

Edited September 18, 2019 by MSURacerDT55

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Not at all, lets not act like people aren't using that record and making it seem as if he did that ALL off of his arm like a Brady or Brees

Question: If a QB does something all with his arm or all with his legs and the end result is the same, does it actually matter?

Lamar came in to a team with an offense that was bottom 3rd in the league (or worse), and turned it into the #1 rushing offense in the NFL and an offense that chewed clock, gained yards, and scored points. Without Lamar running that offense, we don't make the playoffs and finish 7-1. It's that simple. Lamar coming in not only made our offense much better, but because of how much clock we chewed and how long the offense was on the field, it helped the defense stay fresh as well.

[iknowcool]

18 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Question: If a QB does something all with his arm or all with his legs and the end result is the same, does it actually matter?

Lamar came in to a team with an offense that was bottom 3rd in the league (or worse), and turned it into the #1 rushing offense in the NFL and an offense that chewed clock, gained yards, and scored points. Without Lamar running that offense, we don't make the playoffs and finish 7-1. It's that simple. Lamar coming in not only made our offense much better, but because of how much clock we chewed and how long the offense was on the field, it helped the defense stay fresh as well.

It's funny this is the argument you are making, when in the Cam thread the only thing that mattered to you were his passing numbers to prove the rest of his career was an "oof".  

Edited September 18, 2019 by iknowcool

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

It's funny this is the argument you are making, when in the Cam thread the only thing that mattered to you were his passing numbers to prove the rest of his career was an "oof".

Is that what I said?

[iknowcool]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Is that what I said?

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by iknowcool

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, iknowcool said:

 

Yeah, and? Despite his bad passing stats, Carolina has never been a top 10 DVOA offense except 2015 when they were 8th overall despite Cam putting up insane numbers. We'll see where Baltimore finishes, but we're currently #3 in DVOA and last year finished 15th despite being in the lower 20's for most of the year until Lamar became the starter. I think there's a clear difference here with Lamar vs. Cam that you're not acknowledging.

 

 

[LeotheLion]

20 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Lamar came in to a team with an offense that was bottom 3rd in the league (or worse), and turned it into the #1 rushing offense in the NFL and an offense that chewed clock, gained yards, and scored points. Without Lamar running that offense, we don't make the playoffs and finish 7-1. It's that simple. Lamar coming in not only made our offense much better, but because of how much clock we chewed and how long the offense was on the field, it helped the defense stay fresh as well.

You might be right about all that but the teams Lamar was playing when he came in as a starter were garbage defensively. Of his first 5 starts, he faced the 3 worst teams in defensive DVOA and the 28th and 26th. So in his first 5 starts he faced only teams in the bottom 7. LAC and Cleveland were both in the top 12 but at least the LAC game was won primarily from Baltimore's defensive effort.

On the flip side, the first 9 games of the year when Flacco was starting the defenses were much tougher. The averaged DVOA for defenses Flacco faced was 13.89. The average that Lamar faced was 23.86.

Not saying Lamar cannot be great or hasn't had a great start to the season, but last year's regular season, much like the start of this year, hasn't exactly been against murder's row.

[iknowcool]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Yeah, and? Despite his bad passing stats, Carolina has never been a top 10 DVOA offense except 2015 when they were 8th overall despite Cam putting up insane numbers. We'll see where Baltimore finishes, but we're currently #3 in DVOA and last year finished 15th despite being in the lower 20's for most of the year until Lamar became the starter. I think there's a clear difference here with Lamar vs. Cam that you're not acknowledging.

What is the clear difference?  It's only been 2 games this season, so I'm not sure how the Raven's offensive DVOA after 2 games against the Dolphins and Cardinals is supposed to prove anything.

 You are looking to prop Lamar Jackson up for his running ability and what it does for the run game (an argument I agree with), and yet in the other thread all you did was post Newton's passing numbers to try and prove his career has been an "oof" sans 2015.  It is a blatant double standard.

Panthers have consistently had one of the top running games in the NFL because of Newton.  Why was that irrelevant for you in determining in Newton's career has been an oof, but that it should be used as a compliment for Lamar Jackson?

Also the 2011 Panthers had the biggest year-to-year offensive improvement in Newton's rookie season according to Football Outsiders in their history.  They went from dead last to 4th and FO still considers it to be the best running attack since they have done their calculations.  So the same improvements Jackson made in his rookie season for the Ravens, Newton did it as well for the Panthers (except our defense was way worse, thus no playoffs).  So again, explain to me how so far in their careers there is a difference that I'm not acknowledging?

LIS, I agree with your argument.  It was just funny that you are only making it because Jackson is on the Ravens, because you didn't seem to think Newton's running ability should be factored in.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 minutes ago, LeotheLion said:

You might be right about all that but the teams Lamar was playing when he came in as a starter were garbage defensively. Of his first 5 starts, he faced the 3 worst teams in defensive DVOA and the 28th and 26th. So in his first 5 starts he faced only teams in the bottom 7. LAC and Cleveland were both in the top 12 but at least the LAC game was won primarily from Baltimore's defensive effort.

On the flip side, the first 9 games of the year when Flacco was starting the defenses were much tougher. The averaged DVOA for defenses Flacco faced was 13.89. The average that Lamar faced was 23.86.

Not saying Lamar cannot be great or hasn't had a great start to the season, but last year's regular season, much like the start of this year, hasn't exactly been against murder's row.

That's a fair point, but if you ask anyone who watched the Ravens under Flacco, we weren't exactly known for doing well against poor defenses with him, either. When Lamar came in, it provided an instant spark to the team and statistically our offense improved. Whether it was really due to the competition level falling or Lamar, or a mixture of both idk. We played good teams in that stretch, including Cleveland, KC and LAC and Lamar won all of those games except KC, where he scored a late TD and then Mahomes went godlike on our defense. But either way, there was a clear difference and that difference was Lamar and it trickled down throughout the entire team.

3 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

What is the clear difference?  It's only been 2 games this season, so I'm not sure how the Raven's offensive DVOA after 2 games against the Dolphins and Cardinals is supposed to prove anything.

 You are looking to prop Lamar Jackson up for his running ability and what it does for the run game (an argument I agree with), and yet in the other thread all you did was post Newton's passing numbers to try and prove his career has been an "oof" sans 2015.  It is a blatant double standard.

Not really, because without that MVP season, which was largely due to his passing, he'd still be known as a really bad passer. That was my main point. He's a bad passer. Lamar is already better than him IMO and it's only 2 games into his 1st full year as a starter.

3 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Panthers have consistently had one of the top running games in the NFL because of Newton.  Why was that irrelevant for you in determining in Newton's career has been an oof, but that it should be used as a compliment for Lamar Jackson?

Top running games but never been a top 10 DVOA offense except 2015, which was the clear outlier. So you have a top running game but a weak passing game leading the Panthers to being a mostly average team for Cam's career. So far under Lamar, that hasn't been the case.

3 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

LIS, I agree with your argument.  It was just funny that you are only making it because Jackson is on the Ravens, because you didn't seem to think Newton's running ability should be factored in.

Because Cam's running ability doesn't provide enough value to offset how bad he is as a passer.

[SBLIII]

Lamar Jackson is better but I see both as top 10-12 QBs as soon as next season.

[iknowcool]

46 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Not really, because without that MVP season, which was largely due to his passing, he'd still be known as a really bad passer. That was my main point. He's a bad passer. Lamar is already better than him IMO and it's only 2 games into his 1st full year as a starter.

Lamar Jackson is better than Cam Newton (Newton throughout his career, obviously not current Cam) based off 2 games in his 1st full year?

"So far under Lamar, that hasn't been the case."  You are literally referring to a 2 game stretch against the Dolphins and Cardinals.  Come on now.

It's a double standard.  Newton has an MVP season, but apparently it's irrelevant.  Jackson has 2 great games against 2 terrible teams and apparently that is all you need to know he's better.

EDIT - Just to add.  

Between 2013-2017, Newton won the 4th most games in the league among QBs.  And no team hit 15 wins or more like the Panthers did in 2015.  It isn't like we were bad last year before he got hurt - we were 6-2.  We've always at the very least been competitive with a healthy Cam.

We were definitely more than mostly average.  Jackson doesn't even have a full season of data, so I don't know how you can think the Ravens not being average under him yet is a reasonable defense.  

Edited September 18, 2019 by iknowcool

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

14 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Lamar Jackson is better than Cam Newton (Newton throughout his career, obviously not current Cam) based off 2 games in his 1st full year?

"So far under Lamar, that hasn't been the case."  You are literally referring to a 2 game stretch against the Dolphins and Cardinals.  Come on now.

It's a double standard.  Newton has an MVP season, but apparently it's irrelevant.  Jackson has 2 great games against 2 terrible teams and apparently that is all you need to know he's better.

EDIT - Just to add.  

Between 2013-2017, Newton won the 4th most games in the league among QBs.  And no team hit 15 wins or more like the Panthers did in 2015.  It isn't like we were bad last year before he got hurt - we were 6-2.  We've always at the very least been competitive with a healthy Cam.

We were definitely more than mostly average.  Jackson doesn't even have a full season of data, so I don't know how you can think the Ravens not being average under him yet is a reasonable defense.  

Cam has never been a QB who can read a defense and go through progressions, and Lamar is already well past that point. Cam's MVP is what it is, but it's also a very clear statistical outlier to the rest of his career, which has been very mediocre.

[SBLIII]

where is Cam better? Lamar is the better athlete and better thrower.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, SBLIII said:

where is Cam better? Lamar is the better athlete and better thrower.

Cam is better at running through defenders on short yardage situations and also has a stronger arm I think. That's about it.

[SBLIII]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Cam is better at running through defenders on short yardage situations and also has a stronger arm I think. That's about it.

I mean he isn't even doing that anymore and his arm looks shot.