Jaguars fire Tom Coughlin

[Gmen]

Just now, PapaShogun said:

He's tied with Mike Shanahan who also won the Super Bowl twice, and has a higher winning percentage in the same amount of years coached. Is he getting in too?

Yes I would put Shanahan in as well

[soflbillsfan]

15 hours ago, .Buzz said:

We aren't in cap hell. Got a lot of easily cuttable players.

Cap space is a myth.

Cap space is a myth? Yet your at 1.1 mil in space and talking about cutting players to pay a guy 20 mil. So who you going to cut Dareus, Bouye, and Cambell to turn around and pay Yannick and another guy? Dont Jags fans get tired of doing that paying someone big money then struggle to balance out the team with other players? Jags have had 1 heck of a playoff push in 2017 but then fizzled out after that. They have drafted top 10, 11 times in the last 12 years. At some point the Front office and coaching staff needs to be revamped and then built properly. I know they had coughlin come back but caldwell and marrone were essentially there before he came in. I may not be a fan of the Jags like everyone in here but I still follow them greatly and think the fanbase is getting screwed as bad as it was for bills fans. tag Yannick collect an extra draft pick or 2 like they did ramsey and start building this team with a GM and HC that can help these young players flourish. Marrone isnt the guy I have been following him since his Syracuse days. Dont know much about Caldwell but my guess he is part of the problem as they have only had 1 successful season while he has been there.

[.Buzz]

13 minutes ago, soflbillsfan said:

Cap space is a myth? Yet your at 1.1 mil in space and talking about cutting players to pay a guy 20 mil. So who you going to cut Dareus, Bouye, and Cambell to turn around and pay Yannick and another guy? Dont Jags fans get tired of doing that paying someone big money then struggle to balance out the team with other players? Jags have had 1 heck of a playoff push in 2017 but then fizzled out after that. They have drafted top 10, 11 times in the last 12 years. At some point the Front office and coaching staff needs to be revamped and then built properly. I know they had coughlin come back but caldwell and marrone were essentially there before he came in. I may not be a fan of the Jags like everyone in here but I still follow them greatly and think the fanbase is getting screwed as bad as it was for bills fans. tag Yannick collect an extra draft pick or 2 like they did ramsey and start building this team with a GM and HC that can help these young players flourish. Marrone isnt the guy I have been following him since his Syracuse days. Dont know much about Caldwell but my guess he is part of the problem as they have only had 1 successful season while he has been there.

Campbell is a shell of his former self. He's not worth paying $15M and he's pretty much done.

Dareus has a 22M cap hit if we keep him. Why the hell would we do that? He's a solid NT but again, he's not what he was when he got that contract to BUF. I'd be happy to keep him around but it'd be for drastically less than that.

Bouye I'd like to keep and expect it, but again, he's not playing at the all pro level he did in 2017. Wasn't anything more than solid last year either.

Yan is the best pass rusher we've had in nearly two decades (Brackens). He's most definitely worth cutting bait on old/regressing players. He's one of the few legit talents we have on defense and is a leader in the locker room. You can't let the draft hits you have walk out the door.

 

As far as those in command for the Jaguars, I think most all Jags fans would prefer to clean house and start with a new regime. I do think Marrone, whether here or elsewhere is a good NFL HC. I'm not sure what you're expecting a HC who has had his QB luck to be doing. He had Orton and co. in Buffalo and Bortles, Foles (who has looked awful)/rookie Minshew to work with. Now with everything he's dealt with in JAX with Coughlin running around with an iron fist and pissing off his players...

Edited December 23, 2019 by .Buzz

[.Buzz]

8 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Campbell is a shell of his former self. He's not worth paying $15M and he's pretty much done.

Dareus has a 22M cap hit if we keep him. Why the hell would we do that? He's a solid NT but again, he's not what he was when he got that contract to BUF. I'd be happy to keep him around but it'd be for drastically less than that.

Bouye I'd like to keep and expect it, but again, he's not playing at the all pro level he did in 2017. Wasn't anything more than solid last year either.

Yan is the best pass rusher we've had in nearly two decades (Brackens). He's most definitely worth cutting bait on old/regressing players. He's one of the few legit talents we have on defense and is a leader in the locker room. You can't let the draft hits you have walk out the door.

 

As far as those in command for the Jaguars, I think most all Jags fans would prefer to clean house and start with a new regime. I do think Marrone, whether here or elsewhere is a good NFL HC. I'm not sure what you're expecting a HC who has had his QB luck to be doing. He had Orton and co. in Buffalo and Bortles, Foles (who has looked awful)/rookie Minshew to work with. Now with everything he's dealt with in JAX with Coughlin running around with an iron fist and pissing off his players...

Also, to continue on this, Jake Ryan has a 6.5M hit if I remember right and is an easy out. There's plenty of others.

Teams can get a ton of cap easy if they want to so yes, cap space is a myth. This is a 5-11 football team with a lot of holes. Holding onto old vets that are underperforming their contracts and letting young talent that deserve to be paid at vital positions isn't something I want to be apart of.

 

[soflbillsfan]

1 hour ago, .Buzz said:

Also, to continue on this, Jake Ryan has a 6.5M hit if I remember right and is an easy out. There's plenty of others.

Teams can get a ton of cap easy if they want to so yes, cap space is a myth. This is a 5-11 football team with a lot of holes. Holding onto old vets that are underperforming their contracts and letting young talent that deserve to be paid at vital positions isn't something I want to be apart of.

 

yes but by cutting those players your making gaps to the additional holes is what I am saying. Cutting Dareus is a no brainer he has always been underperforming his contract since the minute the bills old regime signed him. Cutting cambell I think would be a mistake he still putting up some stats but not at that price. negotiating his contract would be ideal. So even if you cut dareus and Cambell you now have 35 mil in cap space but you still have a ton of holes to fill and your talking about 20-21 mil of that being put in to yannick. So 14 mil remaining to pay for the holes they are missing in on top of the players your let go. You also have to consider 7-10 mil going towards your draft class as you have 2 1st rd picks and one will be in the top 10. The issue is the big misses on the drafts that push the organization to overspend in FA, which is putting them in a position to underperform based on contract. Dont get me wrong Yannick is well worth the money, but a team that seems to be in a rebuild mode, not a total tear down but close to it based on the contracts they have it may not be worth putting all that money in to Yannick and can grab a 1st rd pick from one team to have 3 in this draft to rebuild with but thats my opinion. Getting what Seattle got for Clarke is something I would expect the Jags to get if they decide to trade yan.

[.Buzz]

33 minutes ago, soflbillsfan said:

yes but by cutting those players your making gaps to the additional holes is what I am saying. Cutting Dareus is a no brainer he has always been underperforming his contract since the minute the bills old regime signed him. Cutting cambell I think would be a mistake he still putting up some stats but not at that price. negotiating his contract would be ideal. So even if you cut dareus and Cambell you now have 35 mil in cap space but you still have a ton of holes to fill and your talking about 20-21 mil of that being put in to yannick. So 14 mil remaining to pay for the holes they are missing in on top of the players your let go. You also have to consider 7-10 mil going towards your draft class as you have 2 1st rd picks and one will be in the top 10. The issue is the big misses on the drafts that push the organization to overspend in FA, which is putting them in a position to underperform based on contract. Dont get me wrong Yannick is well worth the money, but a team that seems to be in a rebuild mode, not a total tear down but close to it based on the contracts they have it may not be worth putting all that money in to Yannick and can grab a 1st rd pick from one team to have 3 in this draft to rebuild with but thats my opinion. Getting what Seattle got for Clarke is something I would expect the Jags to get if they decide to trade yan.

Ryan saves us 6.5 and he hasn't played a snap. Dareus got hurt early in the year. Campbell has been taking snaps from a very talented edge we just drafted in Allen last year, so letting Campbell go isn't opening up some big hole. I'd be fine keeping him but it'd be drastically less. Then you have OL like Linder and Norwell who have underperformed as well that can open up $ if those in charge think it's worth moving on from one or both (doubtful it's both).

You have guys like Swaim who's been hurt/not anything who'd save 4M, Marqise Lee has been hurt constantly and likely is done that saves 5M+, etc.

The Jaguars are going to be fine cap wise. They have so many routes they can go and they also have 9 draft picks in this upcoming draft including two 1sts.

If you let go of just Dareus, Ryan, and Lee that opens up 31M alone and none have made like any contribution this year. 

If we do get a long term deal accomplished with Yan they're obviously going to have it light on the front end given the issues of our cap due to a the high profile FA signings that are going to be coming off the books in the next couple years.

Edited December 23, 2019 by .Buzz

[pwny]

6 hours ago, soflbillsfan said:

Dont Jags fans get tired of doing that paying someone big money then struggle to balance out the team with other players?

If Jags fans are tired of anything, it’s that we pay trash free agents a bunch of money to not produce while being incapable of drafting talent, and then when they actually find a building block type player (Allen Robinson, Jalen Ramsey, and now Yan), rather than paying them, they drive them off and pay subpar players on the team instead.

[.Buzz]

22 minutes ago, pwny said:

If Jags fans are tired of anything, it’s that we pay trash free agents a bunch of money to not produce while being incapable of drafting talent, and then when they actually find a building block type player (Allen Robinson, Jalen Ramsey, and now Yan), rather than paying them, they drive them off and pay subpar players on the team instead.

Exactly it.

[Soko]

7 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Campbell is a shell of his former self. He's not worth paying $15M and he's pretty much done.

Dareus has a 22M cap hit if we keep him. Why the hell would we do that? He's a solid NT but again, he's not what he was when he got that contract to BUF. I'd be happy to keep him around but it'd be for drastically less than that.

Bouye I'd like to keep and expect it, but again, he's not playing at the all pro level he did in 2017. Wasn't anything more than solid last year either.

 

6 hours ago, .Buzz said:

Also, to continue on this, Jake Ryan has a 6.5M hit if I remember right and is an easy out. There's plenty of others.

Jags would save $52.5M by cutting Campbell, Dareus, Ryan, and Bouye. They could also save just under $10M by cutting bait with Hayden and Swaim alone. So yeah, they aren’t in terrible shape. 

It’s not a “myth” though. I’m not even sure what you mean by that. It obviously exists and is a factor in things. The Cowboys are going to lose out on some talent because of it. We’ve seen defenses like the Ravens and Seahawks piece out their defenses because they were rightly not going to pay good/decent players elite money. I guess you’re saying it’s just not as big a factor as some make it out to be? 

[.Buzz]

23 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

 

Jags would save $52.5M by cutting Campbell, Dareus, Ryan, and Bouye. They could also save just under $10M by cutting bait with Hayden and Swaim alone. So yeah, they aren’t in terrible shape. 

It’s not a “myth” though. I’m not even sure what you mean by that. It obviously exists and is a factor in things. The Cowboys are going to lose out on some talent because of it. We’ve seen defenses like the Ravens and Seahawks piece out their defenses because they were rightly not going to pay good/decent players elite money. I guess you’re saying it’s just not as big a factor as some make it out to be? 

Hayden is v good in the slot. Don't see him getting let go. The others wouldn't surprise me, especially with Herndon looking like a very decent #2 corner since he got thrown into the fire.

I'm saying it's a myth because ultimately the way contracts are structured you can always open up space if you REALLY want or need to, especially in today's NFL. So yeah, I guess I'm mainly meaning people make way too big of a deal about it. 

Edit: When I say cap space I mean "cap issues". Obviously I realize there is a salary cap.

Edited December 24, 2019 by .Buzz

[Soko]

3 hours ago, .Buzz said:

I'm saying it's a myth because ultimately the way contracts are structured you can always open up space if you REALLY want or need to, especially in today's NFL. 

But that isn’t always the case. The cap influences tons of decisions. NE wasn’t going to pay Jamie Collins what he wanted, so they traded him. They weren’t going to pay Chandler Jones what he wanted, so they traded him (and shouldn’t have, with full hindsight). They weren’t going to pay Malcolm Butler what he wanted, so they let him walk. They weren’t going to pay Wes Welker what he wanted, so they let him walk. They weren’t going to pay Trey Flowers what he wanted, so they let him walk. If cap issues were so easy to get out of then teams wouldn’t let their cornerstones (or good players, at least) go so easily. 

Deals are usually backloaded, so yeah, even the bad ones can usually be dropped midway through. But that doesn’t mean the cap isn’t an issue for some teams. I remember the Saints being up against the cap pretty hard earlier this decade, mostly because of bad contracts.

[.Buzz]

9 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

But that isn’t always the case. The cap influences tons of decisions. NE wasn’t going to pay Jamie Collins what he wanted, so they traded him. They weren’t going to pay Chandler Jones what he wanted, so they traded him (and shouldn’t have, with full hindsight). They weren’t going to pay Malcolm Butler what he wanted, so they let him walk. They weren’t going to pay Wes Welker what he wanted, so they let him walk. They weren’t going to pay Trey Flowers what he wanted, so they let him walk. If cap issues were so easy to get out of then teams wouldn’t let their cornerstones (or good players, at least) go so easily. 

Deals are usually backloaded, so yeah, even the bad ones can usually be dropped midway through. But that doesn’t mean the cap isn’t an issue for some teams. I remember the Saints being up against the cap pretty hard earlier this decade, mostly because of bad contracts.

It's a lot different if your just up against the cap with a great team and winning lol.

Ultimately if there's a player on your team you covet/love, you can open up $ if you need to though. 

If the Patriots thought losing one of those players would heavily alter how they compete or coveted by them, they could have opened up money to do keep them. That's the whole point.

[Soko]

1 minute ago, .Buzz said:

It's a lot different if your just up against the cap with a great team and winning lol.

Ultimately if there's a player on your team you covet/love, you can open up $ if you need to though. 

If the Patriots thought losing one of those players would heavily alter how they compete or coveted by them, they could have opened up money to do keep them. That's the whole point.

Not without compromising the rest of the team. They went in on Jared Cook and Adam Humphries this offseason - both at positions that have been hurting them this season - and didn’t seal the deal. I’m sure there were other factors, but safe to say money was either comparable or less than what the Bills/Saints offered. 

It’s usually not about a single guy. I have no doubts the Jags aren’t letting Yannick walk. I just don’t believe that the cap is a non-issue. I think it’s more accurate to say that just looking at dollars or cap space can be very deceiving at face value. 

[.Buzz]

5 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

Not without compromising the rest of the team. They went in on Jared Cook and Adam Humphries this offseason - both at positions that have been hurting them this season - and didn’t seal the deal. I’m sure there were other factors, but safe to say money was either comparable or less than what the Bills/Saints offered. 

It’s usually not about a single guy. I have no doubts the Jags aren’t letting Yannick walk. I just don’t believe that the cap is a non-issue. I think it’s more accurate to say that just looking at dollars or cap space can be very deceiving at face value. 

Again, if you have a QB/consistent winner you probably don't have guys that are must signs, but even so you definitely can get out of contracts to pay someone if you want. Which is my whole point. The Patriots could've signed those types even in their financial situation if they really wanted to. It may not have made sense, but ultimately my point is with all the different contract structures of each player you usually have plenty of guys in which you can cut with little issue.

 

 

[Soko]

1 hour ago, .Buzz said:

Again, if you have a QB/consistent winner you probably don't have guys that are must signs, but even so you definitely can get out of contracts to pay someone if you want. Which is my whole point. The Patriots could've signed those types even in their financial situation if they really wanted to. It may not have made sense, but ultimately my point is with all the different contract structures of each player you usually have plenty of guys in which you can cut with little issue.

To sign one player, yes, usually. To keep a team or core together, not always. Being able to chisel the fat in order to keep one guy doesn’t equate to cap issues being nonexistent.