The NFL has an Offensive Line Problem

[Iamcanadian]

On 9/21/2017 at 3:42 PM, Kip Smithers said:

I can buy this explanation. And it makes the Flowers pick 2 years ago, in hindsight, even more dumb founding. We obviously believed that we could fix those technique flaws he has but we were wrong. 

Flowers has no business playing LT, he belongs on the right side maybe even as an OG, but they are desperate, so he plays LT and gets beat a lot. That's football, not every team has the quality they need at every position and just have to make do with what is on hand.

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said:

Flowers has no business playing LT, he belongs on the right side maybe even as an OG, but they are desperate, so he plays LT and gets beat a lot. That's football, not every team has the quality they need at every position and just have to make do with what is on hand.

Flowers is not a guard, he'd get abused there. RT, maybe but it comes again to who we replace him with at LT.

[Hunter2_1]

1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said:

Flowers has no business playing LT, he belongs on the right side maybe even as an OG, but they are desperate, so he plays LT and gets beat a lot. That's football, not every team has the quality they need at every position and just have to make do with what is on hand.

I notice they made sure they had receiver quality though. Surely you need to build a quality line with depth before you consider skill positions. Houses need foundations, as it were.

[Kip Smithers]

20 minutes ago, Hunter2_1 said:

I notice they made sure they had receiver quality though. Surely you need to build a quality line with depth before you consider skill positions. Houses need foundations, as it were.

Not really. You guys are forgetting that we had nothing outside Odell two years ago and even a year ago. Two years ago we had just Odell. A year ago we drafted Shepard as a rookie and Eli Apple (where we actually going for Conklin). This past offseason we got Marshall. Both the line and weapons were areas of need. Flowers was drafted in 2015 and as a rookie he was actually decent. He wasn't bad. So the hope was that he'd improve from then on for his 2nd year and he didn't. This past offseason there was literally no real options to upgrade so we had to rely on what we have.

[Hunter2_1]

8 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said:

Not really. You guys are forgetting that we had nothing outside Odell two years ago and even a year ago. Two years ago we had just Odell. A year ago we drafted Shepard as a rookie and Eli Apple (where we actually going for Conklin). This past offseason we got Marshall. Both the line and weapons were areas of need. Flowers was drafted in 2015 and as a rookie he was actually decent. He wasn't bad. So the hope was that he'd improve from then on for his 2nd year and he didn't. This past offseason there was literally no real options to upgrade so we had to rely on what we have.

Don't agree re: Flowers. He's has had serious issues in pass protection over the course of his career and led all tackles in pressures allowed as a rookie. Take the point about weapons, it was important to get those in two. I just simply think the OL should be a priority for an offense that wishes to have a potent attack.

[AlexGreen#20]

1. It's the same thing that's happening with TEs. Guys with that body set are moved to defense. 

2. Big guys with that athleticism are often moved to TE to be pass catchers. 

3. Because the best guys with that body set are moved to defense. The leftovers are of a lesser quality being matched up against higher quality athletes. 

4. Every other positional skill group is getting huge training opportunities by being able to participate in 7 on 7. Offensive Lineman don't get that additional training. Most summer lineman camps are done in helmets, T's and shorts, if they even get helmets at all. 

5. The way kids grow puts lineman development at a huge disadvantage. Kids that are big in 7th grade often stop growing their junior year of high school and kids that were rakes in middle school often grow into their body later, so you start transitioning kids into offensive line positions later than you do other positions. 

6. The schemes run in high school and college are (at least for the most part) completely different than in the NFL. TAMU has produced more highly drafted tackles than any school in recent memory, and they run block on most of their snaps out of a 2-point stance while back pedaling. How do you evaluate Luke Joeckel's run blocking when he never fires off the ball. 

7. The hand technique that's taught in the lower levels of schools are completely different than the pro game. There's more holding in the NFL than you will ever see in a high school game. Kids are taught to strike and fight off hands. NFL players are taught to strike and grab. 

8. There's no internal prestige for being a great lineman. Everyone in high school and college knows the QB and he's treated with revere. Everybody knows the RB. Nobody knows the great offensive lineman, unless he's a two way player and a great defensive lineman. Ben Bredeson started as a true freshman for Michigan last year, and all the local talk around town (of the highschool he graduated from) was about how they were going to replace the QB who also left. 

9. Athleticism at Guard and Center is really overrated. There are teams that don't even really evaluate college guards, because they plan to move Tackles into that spot regardless. This works for some, but it works less for others. Scheme changes are hard. Position changes are hard. Doing both is extremely difficult. 

10. Good lineman hate flag football and it leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth regarding football in general when they're forced to play it while younger. When you have a kid going to be a great highschool lineman being picked last in football, it makes them mad. Football is a game for big people, but at the lower levels it's co-opted into just another game for little fast kids. 

11. Tight Ends are far worse blockers now than they were fifteen years ago. Tight Ends used to be small offensive lineman with a blocking background, now they're big wide receivers who have never blocked anyone. 

12. RBs are being coached improper blocking techniques at all levels. Watching RBs knock OTs off of blocks while trying to chip gives me an aneurysm and I've counted five instances of it leading to sacks in the four NFL games I've watched this year.

13. Complicated offensive blocking schemes confuse the **** out of RBs. Most RBs get maybe 10 reps of pass pro reps in live O v D practice every week at the highschool and college level. They're expected to basically do independent study to figure out the blocking responsibilities and without being in the lineman room and getting the agreed upon calls that week, it's an extremely difficult task and mainly involves running on the fly. Plus most RBs hate blocking film.

[Iamcanadian]

2 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

1. It's the same thing that's happening with TEs. Guys with that body set are moved to defense. 

2. Big guys with that athleticism are often moved to TE to be pass catchers. 

3. Because the best guys with that body set are moved to defense. The leftovers are of a lesser quality being matched up against higher quality athletes. 

4. Every other positional skill group is getting huge training opportunities by being able to participate in 7 on 7. Offensive Lineman don't get that additional training. Most summer lineman camps are done in helmets, T's and shorts, if they even get helmets at all. 

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Not always at the college level. Certain HC's are famous for the # of TE's they have sent to the pros, an indication that they put better athletes at the TE position. Shaw, the HC at Stanford is a perfect example. Every college HC has tendencies as to where they place their better athletes.

5. The way kids grow puts lineman development at a huge disadvantage. Kids that are big in 7th grade often stop growing their junior year of high school and kids that were rakes in middle school often grow into their body later, so you start transitioning kids into offensive line positions later than you do other positions. 

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This is not always the case and most of those rakes had to have physical traits that indicated they would be big and would be placed at OL or DL even at an early age.

6. The schemes run in high school and college are (at least for the most part) completely different than in the NFL. TAMU has produced more highly drafted tackles than any school in recent memory, and they run block on most of their snaps out of a 2-point stance while back pedaling. How do you evaluate Luke Joeckel's run blocking when he never fires off the ball. 

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This is true for every position and only RB is an easy transition from college to the pros and most of them still have to learn how to block.

7. The hand technique that's taught in the lower levels of schools are completely different than the pro game. There's more holding in the NFL than you will ever see in a high school game. Kids are taught to strike and fight off hands. NFL players are taught to strike and grab. 

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I fully agree that OLmen have an awful lot to learn as pros and even just as important, playing OL requires a lot of teamwork which requires time to adjust to.

8. There's no internal prestige for being a great lineman. Everyone in high school and college knows the QB and he's treated with revere. Everybody knows the RB. Nobody knows the great offensive lineman, unless he's a two way player and a great defensive lineman. Ben Bredeson started as a true freshman for Michigan last year, and all the local talk around town (of the highschool he graduated from) was about how they were going to replace the QB who also left. 

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It really does not matter, a lineman is  usually a lot bigger than his fellow players and pretty well has to play the OL or the DL. They really do not have a choice.

9. Athleticism at Guard and Center is really overrated. There are teams that don't even really evaluate college guards, because they plan to move Tackles into that spot regardless. This works for some, but it works less for others. Scheme changes are hard. Position changes are hard. Doing both is extremely difficult. 

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They certainly evaluate every prospect, but you are correct, a lot of OG's played OT in college. OC does involve athleticism and while the position is certainly considered a secondary position on draft day, it is still a very important spot on a football team as you have to be very quick and smart to play OC in the pros as they not only block, they have to call the OL signals based on what they see from the defense.

10. Good lineman hate flag football and it leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth regarding football in general when they're forced to play it while younger. When you have a kid going to be a great highschool lineman being picked last in football, it makes them mad. Football is a game for big people, but at the lower levels it's co-opted into just another game for little fast kids.

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Really, do not see the point of this statement.

11. Tight Ends are far worse blockers now than they were fifteen years ago. Tight Ends used to be small offensive lineman with a blocking background, now they're big wide receivers who have never blocked anyone. 

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Most pro teams carry 2 types of TE's, one for pass receiving and one who is a solid blocker but weak as a pass catcher, but I certainly agree, since the NFL became a passing league, TE's blocking skills have diminished considerably, since they do not have to block more than 30% of the time vs 70% of the time in the old days.

12. RBs are being coached improper blocking techniques at all levels. Watching RBs knock OTs off of blocks while trying to chip gives me an aneurysm and I've counted five instances of it leading to sacks in the four NFL games I've watched this year.

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Most RB's are not asked to block in college, so there is a steep learning curve for that position, ditto for WR's.

13. Complicated offensive blocking schemes confuse the **** out of RBs. Most RBs get maybe 10 reps of pass pro reps in live O v D practice every week at the highschool and college level. They're expected to basically do independent study to figure out the blocking responsibilities and without being in the lineman room and getting the agreed upon calls that week, it's an extremely difficult task and mainly involves running on the fly. Plus most RBs hate blocking film.

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This is no doubt the case at the lower levels of football, high school and college, but just like every other position in pro football, new skills have to be learned when you reach the pros and for a RB, most of that is learning how to block.

Some really solid point here.