Who's the MJ of Football?

[Plat2]

2 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Kobe has more 1st team all NBA selections than Jordan does(11-10). I would also argue Kobe played in a much tougher era at that position(and guard overall)than mike ever did. So by his logic All  NBA team logic, Kobe>Jordan 

I know you're trying to prove a point with this quote but lets add some context to that statement, MJ played 13 full seasons and Kobe played 18, Kobe also played alot his career when hand checking became illegal making it easier for players to score, especially for guards. So no...Kobe did not play in a tougher guard era than MJ did, there might have been more talent at the guard position but it wasn't a "much tougher" era to play in for a guard, let me jalso add that Jordan played in a much physical era than Kobe did and payed against some of the most physical teams in NBA history such as the bad boys Pistons and mid 90's Knicks.

[AngusMcFife]

37 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Okay I don't think you're understanding what I mean, and how it relates to my point that singular greatness in the NBA is more highly correlated to championships than in the NFL.

Since the introduction of free agency, how many quarterbacks have won multiple Super Bowls, while being the best player for their team in that Super Bowl? 

Tom Brady was the best player in their Super Bowl wins against the Panthers, the Seahawks, and the Falcons. Three times. No other quarterback, since free agency, has been it more than once. Peyton Manning has done it zero times.

 

Brady wasn't the best player in 2004 in 2014. Seymour, Revis, and Gronk were better players than Brady at that time. Brady played great in those games, but you are using a one game sample size to argue that he was the best player on that team.

You've created a completely arbitrary metric to justify your position. Sorry I'm not dumb, I'm not going to fall for that. 

Here's one for you: how many QBs had a 3 year stretch where their performance dominated the rest of the QBs in the league? The list is longer than one, and Brady ain't on it.  

[Plat2]

45 minutes ago, DannyB said:

Okay I don't think you're understanding what I mean, and how it relates to my point that singular greatness in the NBA is more highly correlated to championships than in the NFL.

 

Perfectly worded, in basketball an individual can dominate and that will greatly increase that teams chance to win the championship, obviously that player would still need help as it's still a team sport. In football one single player can be the most dominant player ever but they would still greatly rely on the other side of the ball to execute to win the super bowl.

[DannyB]

17 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Brady wasn't the best player in 2004 in 2014. Seymour, Revis, and Gronk were better players than Brady at that time. Brady played great in those games, but you are using a one game sample size to argue that he was the best player on that team.

You've created a completely arbitrary metric to justify your position. Sorry I'm not dumb, I'm not going to fall for that. 

Here's one for you: how many QBs had a 3 year stretch where their performance dominated the rest of the QBs in the league? The list is longer than one, and Brady ain't on it.  

I'm using championship game performances to point out that it is VERY VERY VERY RARE THAT A QUARTERBACK MAINTAINS HIGH LEVEL PRODUCTION WHILE WINNING CHAMPIONSHIPS FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

Your whole point about Jordan is that he had high level statistical production while winning championships. That is exactly what Brady is doing, and to a degree that is literally unprecedented, in a a league and sport in which it is MORE DIFFICULT to do so. Just because it doesn't look as symmetrical across the board as Jordan does, doesn't mean it's less impressive, or a lesser accomplishment.

And please, I implore you, show me a quarterback that has dominated -- dominated -- every other quarterback for three years in a row, in the era of free agency (prepares for crappy Peyton Manning take).

The thing is, I don't even like Brady that much. I have actively rooted against him for like the past 5 years, and most seasons of the past 15 years. It's just that at some point you have to recognize how unbelievable his career has been, and it's astounding, for all the praise he gets in most places, how many people still can't acknowledge it.

[Plat2]

I agree with AngusMcFife that Brady is not the MJ of football but thats due to the nature of the game and I doubt any football player will ever be. But c'mon now, he is hands down the GOAT QB, I don't even think this is debateable nowadays and in my opinion the GOAT football player, although Rice has argument.

[DannyB]

2 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

I agree with AngusMcFife that Brady is not the MJ of football but thats due to the nature of the game and I doubt any football player will ever be.

The biggest reason Brady is not MJ is due to his off field accomplishments and influence, though.

[Plat2]

8 minutes ago, DannyB said:

The thing is, I don't even like Brady that much. I have actively rooted against him for like the past 5 years, and most seasons of the past 15 years. It's just that at some point you have to recognize how unbelievable his career has been, and it's astounding, for all the praise he gets in most places, how many people still can't acknowledge it.

I think it's because he is still playing, I think 3-4 years after he retires he will get more of the leftover doubters to acknowledge his greatness...of course you'll have some that'll NEVER respect him.

[Plat2]

Just now, DannyB said:

The biggest reason Brady is not MJ is due to his off field accomplishments and influence, though.

That and MJ played defense, elite defense...I can't ignore one half of the game.

[DannyB]

3 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

That and MJ played defense, elite defense...I can't ignore one half of the game.

...Okay?...do you penalize a pitcher for not cranking home runs?

[Plat2]

13 minutes ago, DannyB said:

...Okay?...do you penalize a pitcher for not cranking home runs?

I can say that a pitcher has a limited effect on a game compared to a basketball player, throw out the GOAT pitcher and the GOAT basketball player and ask yourself who has more influence on the game. Just like the GOAT pitcher cannot be compared to the GOAT QB, a starting pitcher throws only once every five games.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Plat2

[DannyB]

4 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

I can say that a pitcher has a limited effect on a game compared to a basketball player, throw out the GOAT pitcher and the GOAT basketball player and ask yourself who has more influence on the game.

On a SINGLE GAME? The starting pitcher can almost single-handedly win an overmatched team the game, if he's the better pitcher. If we're just talking one game, the start pitcher is directly involved in the overwhelming majority of the plays compared to any other player on that team.

[Plat2]

1 minute ago, DannyB said:

On a SINGLE GAME? The starting pitcher can almost single-handedly win an overmatched team the game, if he's the better pitcher. If we're just talking one game, the start pitcher is directly involved in the overwhelming majority of the plays compared to any other player on that team.

You have to win 4 games to win a series though, you could have a dominant pitcher but you're not winning the World Series if the rest of your rotation doesn't play up to par or if the bats go quiet.

[Plat2]

Like I said all this inter-sports comparisons is tough becomes it usually just becomes subjective, just for the record, I have no problems with someone calling a pitcher or a QB the greatest team sports athlete of all time. In my own humble opinion it's MJ but wouldn't be mad at someone saying it's Brady or a pitcher.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Plat2
Meant to say team sports athlete

[DannyB]

5 minutes ago, Plat2 said:

You have to win 4 games to win a series though, you could have a dominant pitcher but you're not winning the World Series if the rest of your rotation doesn't play up to par or if the bats go quiet.

Oooooh you went back and added in the part about him not playing every game! No fair.

If a pitcher plays at an elite level for several seasons over the course of his career, and pitches key games in championships, winning more than any other player? Yeah I'd put them up there.

[Plat2]

1 minute ago, DannyB said:

Oooooh you went back and added in the part about him not playing every game! No fair.

If a pitcher plays at an elite level for several seasons over the course of his career, and pitches key games in championships, winning more than any other player? Yeah I'd put them up there.

And I wouldn't be mad at ya, I guess for me how much influence that player has on the game as a whole plays a big part in determining how great a player is.