Jalen Ramsey or Jamal Adams

[Drained]

Just now, diamondbull424 said:

True. But he simply seems like a narcissist. In terms of the “millennial” insult crap... almost every player in the NFL currently are millennials outside of maybe this most recent draft class or so (Zoomers), so lets not insult an entire generation before this slippery slopes into political talk.

Back to Adams mental stability, he’s not fighting players and coaches and pulling up to training camp in a brinks truck. My statement was comparing Adams level of mental stability to Ramsey and given the anecdotal evidence I think there’s enough to trust him more on and off the field. They’re both highly talented players with issues, but I simply feel more comfortable with Adams’ issues if my team were to be trading a high amount of draft capital and signing him long term.

I mean someone isn't mentally unstable because they complain publicly about a team, I am not mentally unstable cause I complain my coworkers about my boss lol. Adams has a bigger platform and a bigger reason to do so though.

[diamondbull424]

2 hours ago, jrry32 said:

His versatility isn't applicable because his role is more valuable than the versatile role you are discussing. If it were, you'd have Ramsey do it. As for the other two safeties, Ed Reed played a completely different role than Adams and Polamalu. In Troy's case, it's not an easy comparison to an elite CB. It depends on the scheme.

I’m a Ravens fan, I know the roles that Ed Reed played for this team and prior to his nerve impingement in his neck, when he won DPOY, he was able to play both the SS and FS roles. It wasn’t until that injury that he more exclusively started to play the deep safety role because his career/health could seriously be compromised if he took the wrong kind of contact; that and his tackling was no longer as reliable.

Prior to that however, he was a move piece at the safety spot, which is why I listed him. And a guy who can do all of those things is incredibly valuable, same with Polamalu; saying it depends on the scheme, is just a cop out. I’ve seen Polamalu do it all and line up at countless different spots on the defense and simply wreck havoc.

I stated that a guy who can wreck havoc from the safety position due to his level of versatility is the type of player that transcends the “normal” safety value. Obviously this would be dependent on a scheme that would utilize his versatility or else we wouldn’t be talking about his versatility placing him onto the top shelf value in the first place. But that’s still no different than using an elite man cover corner like Ramsey or Nnamdi in a predominantly zone cover scheme, they would be much less effective in those roles. If you have a Jamal Adams and you throw him in a basic cover 2 safety type of role and never blitz him or move him around... then you’re not doing it right. If you have Minkah or Derwin James and you’re not using their versatility and range, then you’re not doing it right.

Edited August 1, 2020 by diamondbull424

[diamondbull424]

19 minutes ago, Drained said:

I mean someone isn't mentally unstable because they complain publicly about a team, I am not mentally unstable cause I complain my coworkers about my boss lol. Adams has a bigger platform and a bigger reason to do so though.

Oh I don’t necessarily disagree. But I think he could be a narcissist more so because he was actively recruiting guys to come to a team that he himself was not happy with the coaching/upper management. I don’t think he’ll particularly be a problem in a strong organization because they will know how to properly handle such a personality. Now it’s fully possible that his agent wanted him to make noise on social media to lead to his trade and its what I believe was the case, however considering enough of his teammates didn’t seem to back him up as a decent guy... it does make me wonder if he himself was narcissistic enough to implore such a strategy to manipulate the situation... which in turn might be the type of behavior that might turn teammates off enough to not come to his defense (if that line of thinking makes sense).

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’m a Ravens fan, I know the roles that Ed Reed played for this team and prior to his nerve impingement in his neck, when he won DPOY, he was able to play both the SS and FS roles. It wasn’t until that injury that he more exclusively started to play the deep safety role because his career/health could seriously be compromised if he took the wrong kind of contact; that and his tackling was no longer as reliable.

Prior to that however, he was a move piece at the safety spot, which is why I listed him. And a guy who can do all of those things is incredibly valuable, same with Polamalu; saying it depends on the scheme, is just a cop out. I’ve seen Polamalu do it all and line up at countless different spots on the defense and simply wreck havoc.

I stated that a guy who can wreck havoc from the safety position due to his level of versatility is the type of player that transcends the “normal” safety value. Obviously this would be dependent on a scheme that would utilize his versatility or else we wouldn’t be talking about his versatility placing him onto the top shelf value in the first place. But that’s still no different than using an elite man cover corner like Ramsey or Nnamdi in a predominantly zone cover scheme, they would be much less effective in those roles. If you have a Jamal Adams and you throw him in a basic cover 2 safety type of role and never blitz him or move him around... then you’re not doing it right. If you have Minkah or Derwin James and you’re not using their versatility and range, then you’re not doing it right.

Point taken, but Reed's value always came from his ballhawking ability. That's not to say he wasn't capable of playing in the box, but it's apples to oranges because Adams isn't that sort of player. And no, it's not a cop out to cite scheme. I hope you recognize that some schemes devalue the CB position and other schemes devalue the safety position. If you're asking me to hold all else equal, I'm taking the shutdown CB. It's about scarcity and defensive flexibility imo. 

[diamondbull424]

14 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Point taken, but Reed's value always came from his ballhawking ability. That's not to say he wasn't capable of playing in the box, but it's apples to oranges because Adams isn't that sort of player. And no, it's not a cop out to cite scheme. I hope you recognize that some schemes devalue the CB position and other schemes devalue the safety position. If you're asking me to hold all else equal, I'm taking the shutdown CB. It's about scarcity and defensive flexibility imo. 

Absolutely. But I think the critical verbiage here is “all things held equal”. For instance I would take Revis over Polamalu (I think)... but they’re both (IMO) equally transcendent talents; which is to say you can’t play corner better than Revis at his peak and you can’t play safety better than Polamalu at his peak.

With Ramsey and Adams I don’t currently have either on that level obviously, but I do have Jamal Adams as being a superior player to Ramsey irrespective of their positional value; said another way, if this were Madden ratings I would rate Ramsey as something like a 92 while I would rate Adams as a 97 or so (and yeah I’m aware that Ramsey is a 94 and Adams is only a 92 in the game).

So when I look at that disparity in “overall” and then I also factor in my discomfort with Ramsey’s “incidents of note” and I’d feel much more comfortable trading for a 97 safety that I expect would play out his contract with my team after giving him $20m, than trading for a 92 corner that I feel after 3-4 years would have some sort of incident on or off the field and I would be forced to trade him or watch as his behavior becomes a cancer within my locker room.

Edited August 1, 2020 by diamondbull424

[jrry32]

4 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Absolutely. But I think the critical verbiage here is “all things held equal”. For instance I would take Revis over Polamalu (I think)... but they’re both (IMO) equally transcendent talents; which is to say you can’t play corner better than Revis at his peak and you can’t play safety better than Polamalu at his peak.

With Ramsey and Adams I don’t currently have either on that level obviously, but I do have Jamal Adams as being a superior player to Ramsey irrespective of their positional value; said another way, if this were Madden ratings I would rate Ramsey as something like a 92 while I would rate Adams as a 97 or so (and yeah I’m aware that Ramsey is a 94 and Adams is only a 92 in the game).

So when I look at that disparity in “overall” and then I also factor in my discomfort with Ramsey’s “incidents of note” and I’d feel much more comfortable trading for a 97 safety that I expect would play out his contract with my team after giving him $20m, than trading for a 92 corner that I feel after 3-4 years would have some sort of incident on or off the field and I would be forced to trade him or watch as his behavior becomes a cancer within my locker room.

Maybe. But I think Ramsey is a better talent and his play not being on that level has more to do with the issues he had the past couple years than his ability.

[diamondbull424]

Just now, jrry32 said:

Maybe. But I think Ramsey is a better talent and his play not being on that level has more to do with the issues he had the past couple years than his ability.

True. If Ramsey gets back to his 2017 form and Adams doesn’t hit some absurd other gear himself, than I can certainly see it. Gambling on that potential for a young player in their prime makes sense, I’m not hating. Either way this season should help to make our hindsight something closer to 20/20.