Jalen Ramsey or Jamal Adams

[JaguarCrazy2832]

Both incredibly talented players have been traded while on their rookie contracts within the last year and I'm wondering which you would rather have for the cost:

Jalen Ramsey (26 games under rookie contract) for 2 1st round picks plus a 2021 4th round pick

or

Jamal Adams (32 games under rookie contract) and a 2022 4th round pick for 2 1st round picks, Bradley McDougald and a 2021 3rd round pick

 

At first glance I was kind of surprised to see Adams go for more than Ramsey although Jalen was a bigger problem with the Jaguars than Adams was for the Jets. Ramsey plays a premiere position but the contract he will want is going to be massive. Also I think the Seahawks are seen as the better team than the Rams so I think its possible those 2 1sts are seems as less valuable than the ones the Jaguars got.

 

Thoughts? Who would you trade for if you had to pick?

[diamondbull424]

I would trade for Adams. While both players complained their way out of bad situations, I find Adams to be far more... “stable” from a mental and leadership standpoint. What’s more I think because of all the things he can do on a defense is of similar value as a top shelf corner. While sure Ramsey can shutdown a WR, Adams can lockdown TEs in man coverage and as we’ve seen with Kittles and Kelce, top shelf TEs are getting you 1200 yards receiving now. A guy who can lockdown a TE is nearly just as valuable as a corner that can do the same for a premier WR. This skillset as more premier TEs enter the league will only become more and more valuable.

Throw in the fact that Adams can call defensive plays, he’s a top 10 efficient blitzer in the league... and that he’s shown success as a known social media recruiter (regardless of if he leaves a year later or not) and I’d rather have Adams.

This doesn’t even consider the fact that my projected picks given are likely to be of lower value, that he might sign for less than Ramsey, he’s younger than Ramsey, and I got him PRIOR to the season vs mid season. For all those reasons, Adams has a clear edge in my mind.

[NYJets4716]

On 7/27/2020 at 5:11 PM, diamondbull424 said:

I would trade for Adams. While both players complained their way out of bad situations, I find Adams to be far more... “stable” from a mental and leadership standpoint. What’s more I think because of all the things he can do on a defense is of similar value as a top shelf corner. While sure Ramsey can shutdown a WR, Adams can lockdown TEs in man coverage and as we’ve seen with Kittles and Kelce, top shelf TEs are getting you 1200 yards receiving now. A guy who can lockdown a TE is nearly just as valuable as a corner that can do the same for a premier WR. This skillset as more premier TEs enter the league will only become more and more valuable.

Throw in the fact that Adams can call defensive plays, he’s a top 10 efficient blitzer in the league... and that he’s shown success as a known social media recruiter (regardless of if he leaves a year later or not) and I’d rather have Adams.

This doesn’t even consider the fact that my projected picks given are likely to be of lower value, that he might sign for less than Ramsey, he’s younger than Ramsey, and I got him PRIOR to the season vs mid season. For all those reasons, Adams has a clear edge in my mind.

Adams is mentally stable? The guy is crazy and lies non stop. He won't shut up and makes up lies after lies then goes back on it and changes the story completely. There is a reason why players on his team called him out and rolled their eyes at him being traded. Adams is as fake as they come with leadership, hes a typical millennial. When things gets tough and he could show real leadership, he folds and cries on twitter. 

Great player, but has issues. 

[HolmesPriest]

They both seem to enjoy the drama, but I would have to go with Adams. 

[jrry32]

Ramsey. Plays a more valuable position and has a very versatile skill-set. A poster talks about Adams locking down TEs. Ramsey can lock down TEs and WRs. He can play in the slot or outside at CB. He could even play safety if you wanted him there. Adams is less of a headcase and a bit more consistent, but Ramsey is the better talent.

[KingOfNewYork]

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I find Adams to be far more... “stable” from a mental and leadership standpoint.

He isn't

Quote

Throw in the fact that Adams can call defensive plays

He doesn't

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and that he’s shown success as a known social media recruiter

He's not

 

[KingOfNewYork]

Adams is Elite  but the Jets won 16 games with him on the team for a reason. He doesn't make the game changing plays you want from a lead defensive player. Ramsey plays a premier position and is what a top 3 Corner at that?

Give me Ramsey.

[Duluther]

I don’t think leadership is highly relevant at the corner position, anyway. What notable defenses have had a cornerback as their “leader”? Sherman and Woodson’s defenses are the only ones that come to mind.

 

Most great corners have either been unpredictable in behavior (like Ramsey or Deion) or quiet (like Bailey, Barber, or Winfield). Not to say that you can’t lead by example as a CB. Being these things don’t hold them back from being productive for their defenses, so I don’t care too much about Ramsey’s unpredictability.

 

And yeah, Ramsey plays a more important position and is a better player anyway, so I’ll take Ramsey.

[diamondbull424]

15 hours ago, KingOfNewYork said:

1. He isn't

2. He doesn't

3. He's not

 

1. I’ve never seen Adams roll up to camp in a brinks truck to “send a message” to the teams front office. Adams has also never been in on field fights with other players. I mean there have only been a few players that have done similar types of stunts... and not one of them has proven to be the most stable options from a franchise building perspective. In a lot of cases, players like that have historically hopped from team to team. As much of a liar as Adams might be, he hasn’t reached that level of absurdity and thus I’d rather take my chances with him. We’ve seen Minkah Fitzpatrick similarly unhappy on the Dolphins and he turned around to become a key leader/contributor within a stable franchise. I think Adams could potentially be looked at in a similar light. 

2. He’s a safety, when the green dot LB goes down, the safety has historically been one of the positions considered for the green dot. Meaning that from an importance standpoint, that provides his position increased value that wasn’t there prior.

3. Cool beans. Tell that to LeVeon Bell who admitted that Adams got him on board the gravy train.

15 hours ago, KingOfNewYork said:

Adams is Elite  but the Jets won 16 games with him on the team for a reason. He doesn't make the game changing plays you want from a lead defensive player. Ramsey plays a premier position and is what a top 3 Corner at that?

Give me Ramsey.

Ramsey has the talent to be at that level, sure, but top 3 corner in actuality? Based on what metric? He graded as the 11th best corner in man coverage last season, he was similarly rated in 2018 as well. Outside of the 2017 season, he’s consistently been more of a top 10 corner than a top 3 corner. Meanwhile Adams has been a top 3 safety and put forth All Pro LEVEL play in back to back seasons.

16 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Ramsey. Plays a more valuable position and has a very versatile skill-set. A poster talks about Adams locking down TEs. Ramsey can lock down TEs and WRs. He can play in the slot or outside at CB. He could even play safety if you wanted him there. Adams is less of a headcase and a bit more consistent, but Ramsey is the better talent.

I understand that they both can cover TEs and that Ramsey is incredibly versatile as a defensive piece. There’s no disrespect to his game in my opinion that Adams is more versatile. Adams can do everything that Ramsey can do except play the boundary corner role... which is admittedly more valuable a role. However Adams makes up for that IMO by being one of the best edge setting defenders in the league and being one of the most efficient pass rushers in the league. While Ramsey has CB/S versatility, Ramsey has S/LB/edge versatility. Not to mention that he’s the superior player the last two seasons, along with the other arguments I made prior to this response.

That said, I’m just defending my opinion here... not attacking yours necessarily. I can understand someone taking Ramsey over Adams, for different reasons. Such as if I’m a franchise that historically has had difficulty addressing the corner position through the draft but have had success with safeties, I would easily go with Ramsey. Or if I was in a position where I had quality talent at safety but not so much at corner.

As a Ravens fan, before Chuck Clark started balling out and before we traded for Marcus Peters both of these players could have been viable options; knowing what we know now, I feel our secondary would have improved more from Adams being added than from Ramsey being added. Even with Clark there Adams would’ve been a welcome addition in a three safety front. He can be lined up in the NCB role, he could play dimebacker, rush the passer, cover TEs. So for the Ravens it makes the most sense for Adams to be a better fit.

[jrry32]

34 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

I understand that they both can cover TEs and that Ramsey is incredibly versatile as a defensive piece. There’s no disrespect to his game in my opinion that Adams is more versatile. Adams can do everything that Ramsey can do except play the boundary corner role... which is admittedly more valuable a role. However Adams makes up for that IMO by being one of the best edge setting defenders in the league and being one of the most efficient pass rushers in the league. While Ramsey has CB/S versatility, Adams has S/LB/edge versatility. Not to mention that he’s the superior player the last two seasons, along with the other arguments I made prior to this response.

This is a paragraph of incredible overstatements. No, Adams does not have "EDGE versatility." That's an outlandish opinion. Being a good blitzer as a safety does not make you an EDGE. That's like me claiming because Cooper Kupp or Larry Fitzgerald are great run blockers at WR that they have "OL versatility." Adams is also not one of the best edge setting defenders in the league. He's a great run defender as a safety. He's good in man to man coverage if he's not on a WR. He's a very smart safety. He's a great blitzer. But he's nothing special patrolling the back-end of the defense.

He's a great all around safety, but his specialty is working close to the LOS. That's valuable, but it's not as valuable as a guy like Ramsey. And it's worth noting that before moving to CB in his final year in college, Ramsey played a similar role to what Adams plays in the NFL, and Ramsey was phenomenal in that role. He was seen as a first round pick BEFORE he transitioned to playing outside at CB. The guy can do it all in the secondary, including shutting down top WRs. 

40 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

As a Ravens fan, before Chuck Clark started balling out and before we traded for Marcus Peters both of these players could have been viable options; knowing what we know now, I feel our secondary would have improved more from Adams being added than from Ramsey being added. Even with Clark there Adams would’ve been a welcome addition in a three safety front. He can be lined up in the NCB role, he could play dimebacker, rush the passer, cover TEs. So for the Ravens it makes the most sense for Adams to be a better fit.

That's fine. But I think most teams would prefer to have the #1 CB. Y'all just happen to have talent and depth at CB.

[diamondbull424]

3 hours ago, jrry32 said:

This is a paragraph of incredible overstatements. No, Adams does not have "EDGE versatility." That's an outlandish opinion. Being a good blitzer as a safety does not make you an EDGE. That's like me claiming because Cooper Kupp or Larry Fitzgerald are great run blockers at WR that they have "OL versatility." Adams is also not one of the best edge setting defenders in the league. He's a great run defender as a safety. He's good in man to man coverage if he's not on a WR. He's a very smart safety. He's a great blitzer. But he's nothing special patrolling the back-end of the defense.

He's a great all around safety, but his specialty is working close to the LOS. That's valuable, but it's not as valuable as a guy like Ramsey. And it's worth noting that before moving to CB in his final year in college, Ramsey played a similar role to what Adams plays in the NFL, and Ramsey was phenomenal in that role. He was seen as a first round pick BEFORE he transitioned to playing outside at CB. The guy can do it all in the secondary, including shutting down top WRs. 

Why would I not consider it a skill set when he blitzes as the outside man and has shown he can set the edge at a high level? That he’s a key 3rd down pass rusher and can do it from the inside as well as off the edge. He’s up there with the best DBs in the league at setting the edge with his leverage and instincts.

What its more like IMO is me saying Kittle is such a great blocking TE that he has the versatility to lineup on an unbalanced line and you could get away with actually running it in his direction via a counter or PA bootleg. Does it mean that Kittle would actually be a good OT consistently over the course of a 16 game NFL schedule? No, but on a snap by snap basis, it just means you can do more with his versatility in being able to line him up at multiple spots to confuse a defense.

Same with Adams, he’s not an edge, but you can plug him onto the edge and legitimately blitz him from a wide 9 as well as line him up there and drop him into a shallow zone, he could switch to a TE into man coverage once the ball is snapped. Because of his skill set you have to account for him being able to do so many different things and that chaos he creates at such an elite level is a weapon that I find to be just as valuable as Ramsey in coverage.

Now COULD Ramsey move to safety and probably be even used in the box at a high level like back when he was in college, sure. But then he wouldn’t be playing boundary corner if he’s lined up in the box, too much space to cover in getting back to his boundary obligations. So his versatility, even though possible, isn’t applicable. The point isn’t that cover corner isn’t important, as it is of the highest importance in the secondary. However a safety that creates havoc and confusion transcends pass the value of a normal safety into that same level as a premier corner. There’s no way I find Champ Bailey to be more valuable to his secondary than Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu were to theirs. Thus I find the scenario to be true here with Adams. He’s able to lineup in so many different spots and do so many different things on any given snap while simultaneously be disguising another aspect of his versatility.

EDIT: Marlon Humphrey is probably one of the other DBs that I would put up there on my best edge setters in the game rankings. I wouldn’t put Ramsey on that same level as those guys.

Edited July 31, 2020 by diamondbull424

[jrry32]

54 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Why would I not consider it a skill set when he blitzes as the outside man and has shown he can set the edge at a high level? That he’s a key 3rd down pass rusher and can do it from the inside as well as off the edge. He’s up there with the best DBs in the league at setting the edge with his leverage and instincts.

Yes, he's up there with DBs. That's not the same thing as being an actual EDGE.

Quote

What its more like IMO is me saying Kittle is such a great blocking TE that he has the versatility to lineup on an unbalanced line and you could get away with actually running it in his direction via a counter or PA bootleg. Does it mean that Kittle would actually be a good OT consistently over the course of a 16 game NFL schedule? No, but on a snap by snap basis, it just means you can do more with his versatility in being able to line him up at multiple spots to confuse a defense.

Yet, nobody would seriously argue that George Kittle could be an OL. That's what you just implied with Adams. He is not an EDGE. He could not be an EDGE.

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Same with Adams, he’s not an edge, but you can plug him onto the edge and legitimately blitz him from a wide 9 as well as line him up there and drop him into a shallow zone, he could switch to a TE into man coverage once the ball is snapped. Because of his skill set you have to account for him being able to do so many different things and that chaos he creates at such an elite level is a weapon that I find to be just as valuable as Ramsey in coverage.

1. That's not as valuable as what Ramsey does in coverage.

2. Ramsey could do those same things, but you wouldn't use Ramsey for those purposes because it's far more valuable to use your top DB to cover than blitz.

Quote

Now COULD Ramsey move to safety and probably be even used in the box at a high level like back when he was in college, sure. But then he wouldn’t be playing boundary corner if he’s lined up in the box, too much space to cover in getting back to his boundary obligations. So his versatility, even though possible, isn’t applicable. The point isn’t that cover corner isn’t important, as it is of the highest importance in the secondary. However a safety that creates havoc and confusion transcends pass the value of a normal safety into that same level as a premier corner. There’s no way I find Champ Bailey to be more valuable to his secondary than Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu were to theirs. Thus I find the scenario to be true here with Adams. He’s able to lineup in so many different spots and do so many different things on any given snap while simultaneously be disguising another aspect of his versatility.

His versatility isn't applicable because his role is more valuable than the versatile role you are discussing. If it were, you'd have Ramsey do it. As for the other two safeties, Ed Reed played a completely different role than Adams and Polamalu. In Troy's case, it's not an easy comparison to an elite CB. It depends on the scheme.

Edited July 31, 2020 by jrry32

[rocky_rams]

Both have the potential to be HOF players but since it’s a passing league now and CB is a more valuable position, give me a Ramsey.  There’s also a small touch of bias in there too

[Drained]

On 7/30/2020 at 9:12 PM, NYJets4716 said:

Adams is mentally stable? The guy is crazy and lies non stop. He won't shut up and makes up lies after lies then goes back on it and changes the story completely. There is a reason why players on his team called him out and rolled their eyes at him being traded. Adams is as fake as they come with leadership, hes a typical millennial. When things gets tough and he could show real leadership, he folds and cries on twitter. 

Great player, but has issues. 

Think you just have a little bit of bias, Adams wasn't that bad as compared to the Jalen Ramsey's, The Le'von Bell's and the Desean Jackson's of the world. He isn't mentally unstable because he speaks out against a team because they REFUSE to trade him and he wants to tank his value so they have no choice. Probably told by his agent to do so.

[diamondbull424]

On 7/30/2020 at 4:12 PM, NYJets4716 said:

Adams is mentally stable? The guy is crazy and lies non stop. He won't shut up and makes up lies after lies then goes back on it and changes the story completely. There is a reason why players on his team called him out and rolled their eyes at him being traded. Adams is as fake as they come with leadership, hes a typical millennial. When things gets tough and he could show real leadership, he folds and cries on twitter. 

Great player, but has issues. 

True. But he simply seems like a narcissist. In terms of the “millennial” insult crap... almost every player in the NFL currently are millennials outside of maybe this most recent draft class or so (Zoomers), so lets not insult an entire generation before this slippery slopes into political talk.

Back to Adams mental stability, he’s not fighting players and coaches and pulling up to training camp in a brinks truck. My statement was comparing Adams level of mental stability to Ramsey and given the anecdotal evidence I think there’s enough to trust him more on and off the field. They’re both highly talented players with issues, but I simply feel more comfortable with Adams’ issues if my team were to be trading a high amount of draft capital and signing him long term.